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Lactic Acid & Celery Juice for Homemade Snack Sticks

MarkL786

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Hi,

I am a beginner looking to make home made beef snacks sticks, but without artificial nitrates like pink cure. I found through my research that lactic acid (encapsulated or regular) and celery juice or celery powder work well together as a curing agent. I had some questions about this:

1. What is the recommended amount of lactic acid and celery juice or powder to add, per pound of meat?

2. When is the best time to add both the lactic acid & celery juice or powder. Would it be after adding spices, while the meat is being mixed to get to the necessary tacky/sticky consistency?

I appreciate any help you all can provide! Thanks.
 

smokin peachey

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I have made summer sausage with celery juice powder with no lactic acid. I follow the recommended amount on the cjp label. I get cjp from the sausage maker. I have also used it to cure bacon and ham. Is there a reason you want to also use the lactic acid?
 

fajitapot

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I have made summer sausage with celery juice powder with no lactic acid. I follow the recommended amount on the cjp label. I get cjp from the sausage maker. I have also used it to cure bacon and ham. Is there a reason you want to also use the lactic acid?
Celery Juice Powder is a nitrite used to replace Prague Powder #1, but cultures are added as well for fermentation purposes (tangy flavor).
 

smokin peachey

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Celery Juice Powder is a nitrite used to replace Prague Powder #1, but cultures are added as well for fermentation purposes (tangy flavor).
Yes I know.

If he is trying not to use cure#1 I am surprised of thinking about using lactic acid.

I use cjp because of extreme food allergies that my wife has. I also do not use sugar and a long list of other things
 

fajitapot

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Bit of a tangent but Summer Sausage, as you mentioned, traditionally uses both cure #1 and some sort of culture like lactic acid (pepperoni as well). Cure to protect you and culture for flavor. I know folks often skip the culture (subject of a post I made this morning) but it's pretty common for semi-dry fermented sausages. I've always used this method for snack sticks as well, smoking after 24-48hrs of fermentation in a warm room.
 

indaswamp

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I have never understood why some people refuse to use sodium nitrite. Sodium Nitrate is a naturally occurring salt and there are natural formations of the stuff; Chile salt peter (not potassium Nitrate) being one of them. Sodium Nitrate is easily reduced to sodium nitrite by many methods.

There is nothing 'unnatural' about the chemical sodium nitrite....at all.....
 

fajitapot

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There is nothing 'unnatural' about the chemical sodium nitrite....at all.....
I agree, it's in celery after all. And most other vegetables. And produced in our mouths! Our digestive systems would quickly be taken over without it.
 

fajitapot

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Peachy there are many types of cultures you can use (here's some reference). You could even use yogurt.

Mark, your cure (celery powder or Prague powder #1) is typically mixed with the rest of the spices while your culture is bloomed (like bread yeast) and added last. But it's pretty forgiving and is likely to have the desired effect no matter when you add it.
 

SFLsmkr1

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IMHO You need to read up on the usages of LAcid (Encapsulated) And Powdered LAcid.

Peachy
Saco buttermilk powder will not ferment.

Another note:

Do NOT use this unless you are 1000% sure you know what your doing.

IMG_1626.jpg
 

indaswamp

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Whether it comes from celery or is a synthetic form of sodium nitrite makes no difference whatsoever. It does not become harmful (in low doses) until it is heated above 266*F where it can be converted to Nitrosamenes. Nitrosamines are considered cancerous and to be avoided. BOTH forms, whether it comes from celery juice or synthetic will convert to Nitrosamines upon heating above 266*! One is no more 'healthy' than the other in this regard. The problem with celery juice is that there is no standard concentration; you could be adding either too much or too little and have no way of knowing. The USDA has set the limit @ 156ppm for sausages and most other meats cured with sodium nitrite. When the meat is heated gently, above 130*, the sodium nitrite converts to NO gas and this is what prevents the bad bacteria from growing and producing toxins. Once the NO gas is chemically bonded with the meat, you get the pink color and the nitrite is used up. Very little remains to possibly be converted into Nitrosamines. But if you use celery powder with an unknown concentration, and use too much, there could be more sodium nitrite left in the meat after smoking where upon frying, you will produce MORE Nitrosamines! So the use of celery juice powder could potentially be MORE unhealthy than synthetic sodium nitrite.

Rant over....
 

SFLsmkr1

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indaswamp is on.

Also called Insta-Cure and Modern Cure. Cures are used to prevent meats from spoiling when being cooked or smoked at low temperatures (under 200 degrees F). This cure is 1 part sodium nitrite (6.25%) and 16 parts salt (93.75%) and are combined and crystallized to assure even distribution. As the meat temperate rises during processing, the sodium nitrite changes to nitric oxide and starts to ‘gas out’ at about 130 degrees F. After the smoking /cooking process is complete only about 10-20% of the original nitrite remains. As the product is stored and later reheated for consumption, the decline of nitrite continues. 4 ounces of Prague powder #1 is required to cure 100 lbs of meat. A more typical measurement for home use is 1 level tsp per 5 lbs of meat. Mix with cold water, then mix into meat like you would mix seasonings into meat.
 

smokin peachey

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Whether it comes from celery or is a synthetic form of sodium nitrite makes no difference whatsoever. It does not become harmful (in low doses) until it is heated above 266*F where it can be converted to Nitrosamenes. Nitrosamines are considered cancerous and to be avoided. BOTH forms, whether it comes from celery juice or synthetic will convert to Nitrosamines upon heating above 266*! One is no more 'healthy' than the other in this regard. The problem with celery juice is that there is no standard concentration; you could be adding either too much or too little and have no way of knowing. The USDA has set the limit @ 156ppm for sausages and most other meats cured with sodium nitrite. When the meat is heated gently, above 130*, the sodium nitrite converts to NO gas and this is what prevents the bad bacteria from growing and producing toxins. Once the NO gas is chemically bonded with the meat, you get the pink color and the nitrite is used up. Very little remains to possibly be converted into Nitrosamines. But if you use celery powder with an unknown concentration, and use too much, there could be more sodium nitrite left in the meat after smoking where upon frying, you will produce MORE Nitrosamines! So the use of celery juice powder could potentially be MORE unhealthy than synthetic sodium nitrite.

Rant over....

Everything you said may be true but that’s not what was originally asked. My wife has extreme food allergies so I cure meat for her with Celery juice powder and apple butter, honey or pure maple syrup and sea salt. Nothing else. It works just fine. She can safely eat it and is happy.

The question is about amounts and timing not #1 vs CJP
 

SFLsmkr1

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Everything you said may be true but that’s not what was originally asked. My wife has extreme food allergies so I cure meat for her with Celery juice powder and apple butter, honey or pure maple syrup and sea salt. Nothing else. It works just fine. She can safely eat it and is happy.

The question is about amounts and timing not #1 vs CJP
Peachy

Just make sure you use the right amount of the celery juice powder. Info on this is rather poor in coming forth.

How is she with MTQ?
 

indaswamp

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Everything you said may be true but that’s not what was originally asked. My wife has extreme food allergies so I cure meat for her with Celery juice powder and apple butter, honey or pure maple syrup and sea salt. Nothing else. It works just fine. She can safely eat it and is happy.

The question is about amounts and timing not #1 vs CJP
When celery juice powder adopts a standard concentration then I can answer your question. Until then, it's a shot in the dark unless you want to invest time and money with laboratory equipment and test it yourself.

I also fail to see how an allergy to sodium nitrite would be affected by one and not the other.
 

smokin peachey

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Peachy

Just make sure you use the right amount of the celery juice powder. Info on this is rather poor in coming forth.

How is she with MTQ?

The key is following the label on the cjp. I am not going to say an amount because it can be different. I get cjp from the sausage maker who I consider to be a reputable company so I trust there label.

What is MTQ?
 

smokin peachey

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When celery juice powder adopts a standard concentration then I can answer your question. Until then, it's a shot in the dark unless you want to invest time and money with laboratory equipment and test it yourself.

I also fail to see how an allergy to sodium nitrite would be affected by one and not the other.

I’m not convinced that she wouldn’t be ok with cure #1 but when you have been through what she has been through I understand her hesitation. She licked a beef gravy spoon and passed out and ended up in the ER. She is very cautious now. She won’t eat out just because there is no way of knowing what could have touched her food.

Sorry to get off topic.
 

indaswamp

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I’m not convinced that she wouldn’t be ok with cure #1 but when you have been through what she has been through I understand her hesitation. She licked a beef gravy spoon and passed out and ended up in the ER. She is very cautious now. She won’t eat out just because there is no way of knowing what could have touched her food.

Sorry to get off topic.
My posts are not meant to be harsh, sorry if they came across this way. I'm just at a loss for understanding how one form of sodium nitrite vs. another could be a problem. It is the same chemical compound.

Wait-did you post about this topic before? I responded to someone that posted where his wife was allergic to the red food coloring used to color cure #1.
 

smokin peachey

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My posts are not meant to be harsh, sorry if they came across this way. I'm just at a loss for understanding how one form of sodium nitrite vs. another could be a problem. It is the same chemical compound.

Wait-did you post about this topic before? I responded to someone that posted where his wife was allergic to the red food coloring used to color cure #1.

The red food coloring was not my post. I did respond to that poster try to help him with CJP. I usually don’t post my CJP cures because I know I will get grief.

What we all need to remember is just because someone wants to use cjp doesn’t make them wrong. I have had great success with it. The key is to do your homework and follow the label and directions.

I don’t look at it as one is right and one is wrong. I do both. Some of it comes down to a matter of opinion. We all have one.
 

chopsaw

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Peach , great job being concerned . If she is comfortable with CJP , and has had no ill effects , you're doing the right thing .
 

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