Nitrate/Nitrite Discussion

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SmokinEdge

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I would like to keep this a civil discussion and an informative one with all input wanted in this conversation.

What I want to address specifically are these new curing compounds and the need or necessity of them. We have celery powder and the new Ecocure that’s currently being talked about. Clearly these products contain nitrates or nitrites but in a natural form. So they are extracting nitrate from fruits, vegetables and or root crops, then processing that extraction to reduce the nitrates to nitrites for a cure #1 replacement and not for a cure #2 replacement. I do understand that nitrates are somewhat naturally found in some ground, but most of that fertile ground has now been depleted except for actual flood plains along river bottoms where more nitrates can be deposited. However, the vast majority of agricultural land is not being naturally flooded from a river system. So for the most part crops are fertilized with synthetic nitrates because nitrates help crops thrive and produce more for harvest.

So how exactly does celery grown in ground fertilized with synthetic nitrate then uptake that nitrite (which it does) then convert that evil poison into a “natural” nitrate? What is natural about todays nitrate?

Todays food chain is such that synthetic nitrates are in everything. Want to use manure for fertilizer? Where did that animal get the nitrate from? Feed stuff which was fertilized by synthetic fertilizer, it’s in our rivers and streams as well, it’s called tail water and runoff. Heck I bet bat guano is all synthetic nitrates because the bugs they eat are exposed to it or consume it. From golf courses to backyards to open crop land synthetic nitrates are used.

Some people are afraid of synthetic nitrate but it’s everywhere. That leafy salad to celery to beets and potatoes and radishes, we consume volumes of nitrates that were applied to the soil as synthetic and then absorbed by the plant as “natural “ nitrate. This makes zero sense.

The nitrate/nitrite scare started in California back in the 70’s. The 70’s and the 80’s were decades of food wars. Everything was going to kill you or shorten your life.
Beef was high In cholesterol, eggs were the same but chicken was just great. This was no joke. They devastated the beef and egg industry as well as processed meats. There was a war on bacon back then and lunch meats. That just didn’t resonate with the public that well then. It’s all crazy, butter would kill you, that’s how we got margarine to gain a foothold in the market. Most all of this has changed today, we love meat, dairy and eggs. Butter in everything because it’s delicious, but what they call “synthetic nitrates” is still bad.

This is all because of the possibility of the formation of nitrosamines. This is a possibility in the right conditions but is not settled science. The USDA says nitrates/nitrites are safe and required in some products. Think of this, the government regulates virtually every thing in your life. I can’t buy the good pesticides to spray my garden or farm fields without a license, can’t buy a gun but what a license is involved, can’t drive a car without a license it goes on and on. Did they just forget to force a license on buyers of nitrates? You can buy this stuff and put it on your garden or lawn or you can buy cure #1 or #2 and make food with no restrictions. Dangerous much?

Sorry for the long rant but appreciate the feedback.
 
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TNJAKE

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I could be wrong but in Eric's video about the eco cure I thought he states that it's totally nitrate/nitrite free? Unlike celery powder and the likes. I have zero issues consuming nitrates/nitrites but just curious
 

DougE

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I could be wrong but in Eric's video about the eco cure I thought he states that it's totally nitrate/nitrite free? Unlike celery powder and the likes. I have zero issues consuming nitrates/nitrites but just curious
It contains rosemary extract, which, wait for it, contains nitrates much like celery powder.
 
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SmokinEdge

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I could be wrong but in Eric's video about the eco cure I thought he states that it's totally nitrate/nitrite free? Unlike celery powder and the likes. I have zero issues consuming nitrates/nitrites but just curious
Exactly why I would like a discussion on the subject. For understanding. As Doug stated the rosemary does contain nitrates and so do some fruits. Rosemary has some ability to combat and control botulism, but why If not for nitrate? These alternate cures also fix that pink cured color, known exclusively to nitrates, how does it do this without nitrates? Or is it all infact a way to repackage nitrates and hide that fact?
 
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TNJAKE

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Exactly why I would like a discussion on the subject. For understanding. As Doug stated the rosemary does contain nitrates and so do some fruits. Rosemary has some ability to combat and control botulism, but why If not for nitrate? These alternate cures also fix that pink cured color, known exclusively to nitrates, how does it do this without nitrates? Or is it all infact a way to repackage nitrates and hide that fact?
He did mention that this used a different scientific method of curing than traditional due to the ingredients. Maybe it reacts with the nitrates differently and eliminating it in the end product?
 
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DougE

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Guess I misunderstood him then
Not so much that as he wasn't telling all. After that ecocure vid, I did a little research on rosemary, and it is a plant based source of nitrates. In curing meats, Nitrites/nitrates are necessary. The only difference is the source, and as Edge already stated, most of these plants have been fertilized with synthetic fertilizers, soooooo..........
 
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SmokinEdge

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Anyone with science based info is encouraged to post that information here. I really would like to know. As far as I can tell so far this is all a way to produce and repackage nitrate into something that feels better or seems safer to the consumer, but is it?

Eric also posted a video warning about tasting the raw sausage mince for fear of nitrite poisoning or nitrosamine formation. The USDA/FDA says that the limits they have set are safe. No mention of reduction or the process for that reduction. 156ppm are safe in sausage and 200ppm safe in whole muscle. The nitrate appears to be more dangerous than nitrite as they banned nitrate in bacon made commercially and reduced nitrite to 120ppm with a added citric acid derivative such as sodium erythorbate Mandatory.
 

Brokenhandle

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Alot of big words here...not into the whole technical side of it. But the one thing that was brought up is using manure for fertilizer...and without going back and rereading or quoting what you said, so I don't get it wrong. Here's what I do know, in my state anyway because those are the regulations I must follow. The use of manure for fertilizer is highly regulated! Including separation distances from streams. It has to be incorporated. The gallons per acre are also regulated...depending on mandated soil tests, nitrogen and P and K levels. On the other hand...commercial fertilizer spread by local cooperatives don't face the same scrutiny.
There's alot of negativity that comes from the media and city dwellers ( don't mean to be negative in that means, but many are so dumb to not understand anything...there meat and eggs come from the grocery store). What they don't see is the steps farmers are taking to try to better these issues ( once again, only know about what's happening in Iowa). Cover crops, no till, buffer strips next to streams.
As far as the new eco cure that has been talked about recently...don't have a clue on it. My only thing is responding to some comments you made in the original post.

Ryan
 
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DougE

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But the one thing that was brought up is using manure for fertilizer...and without going back and rereading or quoting what you said, so I don't get it wrong. Here's what I do know, in my state anyway because those are the regulations I must follow. The use of manure for fertilizer is highly regulated! Including separation distances from streams. It has to be incorporated. The gallons per acre are also regulated...depending on mandated soil tests, nitrogen and P and K levels. On the other hand...commercial fertilizer spread by local cooperatives don't face the same scrutiny.
And that's a lot of s#@t right there! Also regulated is how said manure may be stored until it's either hauled off or spread on fields.
 
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jcam222

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In the video he quite clearly states there are no nitrites or nitrates in the Eco Cure. He continues on to say not even naturally occurring as you find in celery powder.
 
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Brokenhandle

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Can't apply manure to highly erodible fields here...but can apply commercial fertilizer to them.

Ryan
 

SmokinEdge

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Alot of big words here...not into the whole technical side of it. But the one thing that was brought up is using manure for fertilizer...and without going back and rereading or quoting what you said, so I don't get it wrong. Here's what I do know, in my state anyway because those are the regulations I must follow. The use of manure for fertilizer is highly regulated! Including separation distances from streams. It has to be incorporated. The gallons per acre are also regulated...depending on mandated soil tests, nitrogen and P and K levels. On the other hand...commercial fertilizer spread by local cooperatives don't face the same scrutiny.
There's alot of negativity that comes from the media and city dwellers ( don't mean to be negative in that means, but many are so dumb to not understand anything...there meat and eggs come from the grocery store). What they don't see is the steps farmers are taking to try to better these issues ( once again, only know about what's happening in Iowa). Cover crops, no till, buffer strips next to streams.
As far as the new eco cure that has been talked about recently...don't have a clue on it. My only thing is responding to some comments you made in the original post.

Ryan
Thank you Ryan for the input. I would like it all to be hashed out. My points about nitrates in ag and on the land generally was about were does that nitrate come from? Poop out of a cow really isn’t natural when you consider the fact that that cow eats feed stuff that was fertilized with “man made fertilizer “ so how is the poop contain “natural” nitrates? How does a plant or animal convert “man made” or Synthetic “ nitrates into “ natural” nitrates, exactly? How are those nitrates then different? What exactly is the definition of a “natural “ nitrate vs a “synthetic “ nitrate? All fertilizer is “man made” and all animals consume it From the ground. So how do you cut that out?
 

SmokinEdge

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In the video he quite clearly states there are no nitrites or nitrates in the Eco Cure. He continues on to say not even naturally occurring as you find in celery powder.
So this is at the root of what I’m asking. What properties of this cure will do:

1) control botulism

2) retain the pink or red color of meat.

These things are or were only known to be performed by the use of nitrites And its reduction. So what exactly is this secretive new concoction of extracts? What have we all been missing? This is the nuts and bolts of this thread. What is it and how does it work, because its defying known science.
 

pc farmer

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Thank you Ryan for the input. I would like it all to be hashed out. My points about nitrates in ag and on the land generally was about were does that nitrate come from? Poop out of a cow really isn’t natural when you consider the fact that that cow eats feed stuff that was fertilized with “man made fertilizer “ so how is the poop contain “natural” nitrates? How does a plant or animal convert “man made” or Synthetic “ nitrates into “ natural” nitrates, exactly? How are those nitrates then different? What exactly is the definition of a “natural “ nitrate vs a “synthetic “ nitrate? All fertilizer is “man made” and all animals consume it From the ground. So how do you cut that out?

Well when our cows are in pasture, it's all natural because there is never fertilizer put on the pasture and they get no feed stuffs. I know it's no help but maybe something to think about.
 

Brokenhandle

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Thank you Ryan for the input. I would like it all to be hashed out. My points about nitrates in ag and on the land generally was about were does that nitrate come from? Poop out of a cow really isn’t natural when you consider the fact that that cow eats feed stuff that was fertilized with “man made fertilizer “ so how is the poop contain “natural” nitrates? How does a plant or animal convert “man made” or Synthetic “ nitrates into “ natural” nitrates, exactly? How are those nitrates then different? What exactly is the definition of a “natural “ nitrate vs a “synthetic “ nitrate? All fertilizer is “man made” and all animals consume it From the ground. So how do you cut that out?
Maybe I should have pointed out...I only have experience with pigs. Sent 2 semi loads to market this afternoon. Beef...I know medium rare on my plate is good! Lol

Ryan
 

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