Nitrate/Nitrite Discussion

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SmokinEdge

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I appreciate the responses. All of them are important, and informative.

So gonna think out loud first, then ask a question.
So this thread is mainly in reaction to the new ecocure, I believe @daveomak posted? Didn't pay alot of attention...mainly price based.

My question...what or how is this discussion gonna help teach our new members about safe curing practices? It's over the heads as far as newbies are concerned.

Ryan
This, I think, is an important discussion. If it’s over anyone’s head for comprehension then they should stand on the sidelines. If we can ask the right questions and have civil discussion then we can further understand modern innovation. I’m genuinely curious about this new product, the price not withstanding. I’m intrigued as to the science behind the ecocure. If you have input toward that it’s certainly welcome. otherwise what exactly makes ecocure safe as a practice? The fact that 2 guys Eric is promoting it, which he is payed to do, or is it that The Sausage Maker is selling it? What does the USDA say about it, if anything? This is not so much about safe curing practice as it is about what makes these new curing compounds better or more worthwhile than traditional cure #1 and #2? How are these “safer” or how are they a better alternative? I’m genuinely asking for scientific evidence not emotional opinions. What are the facts? I don’t know, and that’s why I’m asking the forum.
 

indaswamp

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I'll add this:
NO gas is not the only molecule that can turn meat pink by binding to the myoglobin. CO gas can do it also. Maybe there is a chemical means for CO...or a CO reactive site on an organic molecule in the eco-cure that binds to the meat myoglobin to produce the red color, while the polyphenols do the heavy lifting of antimicrobial protection?? I have no idea...just a thought. But Like SE, I am genuinely curious about this new curing product.
 

SmokinEdge

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Doing a deep dive....and I'm not finding much other than this:



https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30181448/

So it seems to be that the mechanism for protection against botulism in rosemary extract is independant from nitrates or nitrites.....
Thank you Kieth. That’s good info. Would sure like to see more laboratory results on botulism and how the cured color is fixed in the cured meats. FDA/USDA will be of no help because they do not recognize curing agents other than cure #1 and #2. Meanwhile these products are stating protection against botulism, specifically so I’d like to see the head to head with nitrite or something similar.
 

SmokinEdge

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I'll add this:
NO gas is not the only molecule that can turn meat pink by binding to the myoglobin. CO gas can do it also. Maybe there is a chemical means for CO...or a CO reactive site on an organic molecule in the eco-cure that binds to the meat myoglobin to produce the red color, while the polyphenols do the heavy lifting of antimicrobial protection?? I have no idea...just a thought. But Like SE, I am genuinely curious about this new curing product.
CO does and can fix color, but to a lesser extent than NO, plus if I’m not mistaken, CO does not diffuse into the meat deeply like nitrite does where it converts to NO, so there is no real carrier for CO like there is for NO. Just thinking out loud.
 

indaswamp

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CO does and can fix color, but to a lesser extent than NO, plus if I’m not mistaken, CO does not diffuse into the meat deeply like nitrite does where it converts to NO, so there is no real carrier for CO like there is for NO. Just thinking out loud.
Far AS I know CO gas will diffuse just a well as NO gas through meat.
 
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SmokinEdge

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Far AS I know CO gas will diffuse just a well as NO gas through meat.
As far as I know this is true from the surface of the meat as in a pink ring, but there is no carrier for a gas such as CO into the core of a piece of meat. Not like NO which is carried into the meat by nitrite NO2 then converts to NO once inside. Otherwise we could cure meat with just smoke, but we cannot. Smoke alone, a source of CO, will not turn meat pink deep inside, but meat cured with nitrite, NO2, does turn the deep interior of meat pink even when no smoke is applied.
 

BurntWeenie

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"There is NO celery and ZERO NITRITES/NITRATES in the EcoCure #1 or #2"

False advertising. Rosemary extract clearly contains nitrates and is on the FDA GRAS list.


 

motocrash

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Well, after spending some time in the rabbit hole I have emerged with an understanding of how this eco cure works, as stated.

- Chromatography isolates molecular structures
- Polyphenols are extracted by chromatography.
- Polyphenols contain both antioxidants and antibodies.
- Antioxidant = maintains pink color
- Antibody = neutralizes antigens

Just because one or more of the extracts are derived from plants that also contain nitrite or nitrate is irrelevant. The polyphenols are isolated.

Here are the links, Note this in the polyphenol article : Polyphenols are seldom evaluated by antibody technologies.[23]


 
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BurntWeenie

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"The inhibitory effect of rosemary is the result of the action of rosmarinic acid, rosmaridiphenol, carnosol, epirosmanol, carnosic acid, rosmanol and isorosmanol. They interact with the cell membrane, causing changes in genetic material and nutrients, altering the transport of electrons, leakage of cellular components and production changes in fatty acid. In addition, it also produced an interaction with the membrane of proteins that produced the loss of membrane functionality and its structure [87]."

What does have to do with antibodies. Most all the studies are done in a test tube. Food studies seem to have been done in cook meat. There is not a plethora of clear research.
 

jcam222

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Perhaps just me but there seems to be a blend of true quest for knowledge and witch-hunt in the thread. I understand and appreciate the quest for understanding but some of the overwhelming need to prove it ineffective or false is a bit bizarre.
 

SmokinEdge

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As to the new Eco-cure, I’ve done some deep diving and found a lot of information that confirms that plant extracts with no nitrate/nitrite can be used in replacement of nitrates to cure meats. These are antimicrobial and antioxidants extracts. All the evidence suggests this is possible to do, however the process is very inconsistent batch to batch because of the variables of harvest location, plant quality, potency of the plants, freshness of the plants and so forth. In almost all cases so much extract needs to be used to gain the effects of preservation that the flavor of the meat is compromised. It all seems to be a bit of a slippery slope like with homeopathic medicine. And that’s how I view this thus far. We all have no problem shoveling down our prescribed medication from our Dr. No question really about what chemicals may be in them because the Dr. prescribed and the Pharmacist made whatever it is so just take it, and it works. Some folks have tried to medicate organically and success is all over the board and very inconsistent, but formulated medication works. I see this as no different as of now.

Be interesting to see the results of this product in a brine where it is diluted. I’m excited for innovation here, if this product really is consistent and is a direct replacement for nitrate/nitrite then more products are on the way! This will potentially revolutionize cured meats. I will not hold my breath though and not throwing out my NO2 or NO3 any time soon.
 
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SherryT

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I read through quite a bit of the thread.

I'll continue to use what I KNOW works, so it's #1 for me (I haven't delved into #2 yet, but I have it for when I'm ready).

I've never bought into the "all natural" or "organic" marketing as I believe "most" of it is simply that...marketing.
 
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BurntWeenie

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I read through quite a bit of the thread.

I'll continue to use what I KNOW works, so it's #1 for me (I haven't delved into #2 yet, but I have it for when I'm ready).

I've never bought into the "all natural" or "organic" marketing as I believe "most" of it is simply that...marketing.
Arsenic and Ricin are all natural and organic. Drink enough water and it will kill you says the toxicologist
 
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kuroki

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I think the "witch hunt" aspect regarding the claims of this product is completely justified as it costs 10-15 times as much as traditional cure AND you have to use 4x as much of it.

If someone is marketing a product that costs 50x as much why should people not be somewhat suspicious?

That doesn't mean it is a bad product or that there isn't a chance it's better. But it needs to be looked at objectively as a "natural" product with the word "eco" in its name that costs 50 times more to use than the well proven traditional products. If it's truly everything it claims to be, then it being picked apart will prove that and make the product look good. If it doesn't then the scepticism was justified.
 

DougE

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My initial research did show that rosemary is a source of nitrates (which it actually is, as are about all plants since they take up nitrogen from the soil), but is there enough to have curative properties, or is there something else going on here. The question is what? What compounds in it serve the same role for color fixing and overall curing properties, like protection from certain pathogens as we see with traditional cures? How do these compounds fully permeate solid muscle (we know traditional cures do this because they are salts that are drawn into the meat, as such). Also, since it's considered a spice or additive by definition, it's unregulated, unlike the nitrites/nitrates most of us use. What actual independent research is being done as far as the efficacy and safety is being done to insure the cured meats we feed our families and friends are safe to consume? If this, in fact, is a new innovation in curing without nitrates/nitrites, Great, but there are a lot of questions to be answered before I toss my curing salt in favor of this.
 

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