Non-Fermented and Firm/Dry Beef Snack Stick: Any Advice to add "snap" to my sticks?

[geostriata]

Hi folks,

I've been lurking here for a while, scouring the site to try to recreate one of my favorite snack sticks (Ajay's Montana Bananas). I basically went on a mission to find the closest snack stick from my childhood, purchasing any commercial stick I could find. Almost all the sticks were floppy, smooth (without texture), and without "snap." I gather that these are desirable qualities for some folks, but for me, it's not what I want. I should be able to easily break the beef stick in half with three fingers: with the thumb pushing in the center, the stick should snap in half without much effort like a pencil. The casing should be wrinkled and the filler should have texture so that, when you bite into it, you can discern discrete chunks of fat and meat.

After going through 4 packer briskets and doing about 10 batches (each with 2-3 mini experiments), I'm at my wit's end. I could really use anyone's help to come to a solution. In the spirit of sharing tips, and showing my process, here's what I've learned so far:

• Binders/Additives: I ran through several experiments with different binders and without binders. I tried carrot fiber, phosphates (SureGel, PhosThis!), and milk powder. Binder was helpful when I was first starting out. Early on, I failed to do proper protein extraction, so my sticks were either dry-as-powder or using a form of binder and Okay. I found the phosphates to be a bit aggressive, making my filler smooth (and commercial tasting), but also lacking texture. Ultimately, I feel I got the best texture without using binder at all. Carrot fiber (C-bind) was a very close runner up (and would definitely recommend it in general for beginners). As for additives, I didn't like the tangy taste of Sodium Citrate, so I pulled that out of my mix. I like Sodium Erythorbate since it allows me to get started right away, and it doesn't impact the flavor at all.
• Grind: I ran through different experiments with regard to my grind. The most important (of course) was to have your meat COLD when you grind. After I learned that the hard way, I tried a coarse->fine, medium->fine, coarse-medium, medium two grind, and just medium. I have to say, I don't really see much benefit to multi-grind. Right now, I'm getting results I'm happy with using a single medium (4-6mm grind). I tried several ranges of fat content (80/20, 90/10, 70/30, 60/40), and I was happiest with the standard 80/20. I tried mixing it up with a bit of pork here and there, and it did uniquely affect the flavor, but it wasn't necessary, so I'm sticking with all-beef. I tried with and without beef heart, but as long as you keep the fat/lean ratio the same, it didn't impact it too much (though I do like using a little heart since it add a nice color).
• Flavor / MSG / Liquid Smoke: I was dubious on these, so I ran blind trials with and without each. As long as you don't go overboard on these, I feel they do make things taste better. I use 3g smoke and 3g msg per pound. Add too much of either (esp. smoke) and your snack sticks will go straight to the bin. As for the flavor, I have it pretty dialed in. The key trick I used was to put the seasoning in a coffee grinder first, since the anise/fennel in the pepperoni seasoning was too coarse.
• Technique: I ran an experiment to test whether a slow ramp in cooking temp helped with casing separation (it does, but not as much as proper protein extraction). My schedule is: 1hr@125, 1hr@140, 2hr@155, 4hr@160. I've tried variants of this (lower, shorter, longer, etc...), and nothing worked as well. Another experiment to test cold bath vs. water spray vs. freezer vs. just sticking in the fridge. Water addition after cooking makes the collagen mildly softer, but since I'm trying for crisp, I just stick it in the fridge now. If I figure out this issue, I may revert to a light spray after cooking since it makes the stick easier to bite into, as long as it doesn't make the stick floppy. Another experiment to test whether resting in the fridge helps: my results show it doesn't help as much pre-cook (but I used S. Erythorbate), but it does help tremendously after cook! I think I threw away a few failed experiments too early because I didn't let it stabilize in the fridge long enough. Now, I evaluate all experiments after waiting a day or two in the fridge.
• Casings: I got the 15mm casings from Waltons and I LOVE THEM. They are so much better (and fresher) than the LEMs casings you can get on Amazon. I could tell immediately. This was a big level up for me, once I switched to this casing. The only downside is that they are a bit more fragile, but it's totally worth it. I'm in the process of trying to source 13mm casings, but that's proving difficult...
• Fermentation: I've ruled it out because the sticks I like don't have a tangy flavor at all. Also because the ingredient list doesn't include any fermentables (just beef, beef heart, pepperoni seasoning, sodium erythorbate, liquid smoke, and cure #1).

So I have only two ideas remaining:

1. I need 13mm casings for this to work. I'm dubious, but maybe this is true given how much better my sticks got when I went from 17mm to 15mm.
2. I need to use a smoker. At present, I'm only using a Nesco gardenmaster dehydrator (and the oven if I want to try taking temps up past 160). It makes awesome beef jerky, so I feel I've got that down, but maybe somehow smoke can make it firmer? I don't know...

So before I try to sink even more money into this, importing bulk 13mm casings or buy a new electric smoker + cold smoker attachment, I'd like to ask the forum. Anyone have any ideas I can try to help make my beef sticks have "snap?"

Thanks!

(Captions for Attached Image)

• Left: What my stick looks like when I try to snap with three fingers.
• Mid: Appearance of the commercial stick after trying to snap with three fingers. This is what I want to achieve.
• Right: Side-by-side cutting a small cross section by knife.

 

[zwiller]

Welcome!

I am not really into snap but IMO snap is all about drying. One way to do this is to put your sticks in a brown grocery bag, seal, and park in fridge until you are happy.

 

[geostriata]

Thanks, zwiller ! I'll load up my current batch in folded brown grocery bags (do I need to have a stronger seal?). I've loosely tried that approach before, but only gave it a few days. Do you know how long it might be necessary to achieve dryness?

I also wonder why my experiments to simply leave it in the dehydrator longer didn't work. I'd think if snap was only a function of dryness, then that should also work. (Maybe I didn't leave it in the dehydrator long enough? The most I went was 24 hours. I'll set up another test that tries that as well). Lastly, I've also got some silica gel. I also throw a piece in a vacuum sealed bad with silica gel and see what happens.

 

[BGKYSmoker]

To get what your looking for with the snap style your going to need some sort of lactic acid or starter culture.

 

[geostriata]

BGKYSmoker Yes, I've looked into that one quite a bit! However, I haven't been able to convince myself that it's necessary or mandatory for the "snap" that I want. Here's my reasoning:

1. The commercial product that I like doesn't have a "tang," doesn't use cure #2 (which often goes with fermented variety), and doesn't use any direct acid-like additives (like lactic acid, or sodium citrate). So I believe they have achieved the results I want without fermentation or lactic acid.
2. I've used encapsulated sodium citrate (I actually used too much), and I still encountered the lack of snap. I can certainly try adding lactic acid to my next batch to see if that helps, but I'm a bit skeptical at this point. I get the impression that it may help a little, but won't get me all the way. Moreover, I don't want that "tang" flavor, so I'm reluctant to use a lot.
3. I really appreciate the great thread by nepas on fermentation topic (https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/ams/dry-curing-and-fermentation.9724/). One of the quotes:
   
   "An advatage of low pH in the fermented product, other than the preservative and flavor effects, is the fact that it promotes more effective drying. The closer the meat is to the isoelectric point, the more rapidly it will lose moisture. Meat with salt added will reach its isoelectric point at a pH of approximately 4.6 to 4.8. The closer to that pH, the more we facilitate the loss of moisture from the product as it dries."
   
   However, this implies that drying could be achieved by other means as well. While lowering PH may help with drying, I think there's likely a way to achieve dry snack sticks without such a low ph.

That being said, your comment makes me think that it's worth it for me to try again, focusing on the ph. This way, I can learn how to create a good stick with "snap" even if it is tangier than I would like. In my next batch, I'll add lactic acid to get to the measured ph of 4.6 to 4.8 and see how much that helps.

Thanks!

 

[zwiller]

Those are seriously dried sticks! Have never seen anything like them around here. Now that Rick has posted I will let our resident sausage master take over. No idea that acid would do that but I trust him.

 

[BGKYSmoker]

BGKYSmoker Yes, I've looked into that one quite a bit! However, I haven't been able to convince myself that it's necessary or mandatory for the "snap" that I want. Here's my reasoning:

1. The commercial product that I like doesn't have a "tang," doesn't use cure #2 (which often goes with fermented variety), and doesn't use any direct acid-like additives (like lactic acid, or sodium citrate). So I believe they have achieved the results I want without fermentation or lactic acid.
2. I've used encapsulated sodium citrate (I actually used too much), and I still encountered the lack of snap. I can certainly try adding lactic acid to my next batch to see if that helps, but I'm a bit skeptical at this point. I get the impression that it may help a little, but won't get me all the way. Moreover, I don't want that "tang" flavor, so I'm reluctant to use a lot.
3. I really appreciate the great thread by nepas on fermentation topic (https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/ams/dry-curing-and-fermentation.9724/). One of the quotes:
   
   "An advatage of low pH in the fermented product, other than the preservative and flavor effects, is the fact that it promotes more effective drying. The closer the meat is to the isoelectric point, the more rapidly it will lose moisture. Meat with salt added will reach its isoelectric point at a pH of approximately 4.6 to 4.8. The closer to that pH, the more we facilitate the loss of moisture from the product as it dries."
   
   However, this implies that drying could be achieved by other means as well. While lowering PH may help with drying, I think there's likely a way to achieve dry snack sticks without such a low ph.

That being said, your comment makes me think that it's worth it for me to try again, focusing on the ph. This way, I can learn how to create a good stick with "snap" even if it is tangier than I would like. In my next batch, I'll add lactic acid to get to the measured ph of 4.6 to 4.8 and see how much that helps.

Thanks!

I am nepas

 

[geostriata]

I am nepas

Hahaha, well it's an honor! You certainly know your stuff!

Regardless, I'm still not convinced for the above reasons I mentioned. Low ph (due to lactic acid or fermentation) may make it a lot easier, but I still don't think it's the only way to create sticks with "snap." Especially considering I'm eating the evidence right now. Maybe I'll try to measure the ph of the target snack stick by creating a slurry... that way I can compare. Still, I'd think that's not necessary since it's not tangy and lactic acid or a fermentable is not on the ingredient list...

 

[geostriata]

Just took a quick look at two of my experiments:
* The beef sticks in the fridge in the paper bag didn't show much change. They would still bend without breaking after they got to room temp.
* The beef sticks that I left overnight in the dehydrator also (initially) didn't look promising. They were firmer, but still elastic. However, after resting in the fridge for an hour, they demonstrated the characteristic "snap!" They were a bit too dry, but it looks like zwiller 's comment set me on the right track: It's just a function of dryness (Thanks!).

I think maybe the reason the simply "stick-in-the-dehydrator-longer" approach didn't work for me last time was either because (1) my temps were too high, or (2) my technique wasn't as good back then, causing case hardening which got in the way of further drying.

As such, my new schedule will be something like: 1hr@125, 1hr@140, 4hr@160, 8hr@140. I'll whip up a quick batch this evening so that I can post the results tomorrow.

Cheers & Thanks!

 

[geostriata]

Just kicked off a batch now. In case anyone was curious, here's my recipe. My process is to go by weight as much as possible so that I can easily scale the recipe to any size of ground meat. This works well with my process where I make jerky, then take the scraps and use what's left over for snack sticks. Where possible, I'll try to indicate a volume measurement (but it'll be less precise):

Geostriata's Pepperoni Snap Sticks

For every pound of ground meat:

• LEM's Backwood's Pepperoni Seasoning: 19g (~1tbsp + 3/4tsp)
• Cure #1: 1.1g (~1/4tsp)
• MSG: 2.5g (~1/2tsp)
• Ground Red Pepper: 6g (~1TBSP)
• Sodium Erythorbate: 0.3g (~1/10 TSP)
• Liquid Smoke: 3g (~1/2tsp)
• Water: 3oz

Here's the steps:

1. Take all of your pepperoni seasoning and put it through a coffee grinder. Then put it back in the bag for later reuse. You want the anise/fennel to be smaller to help with consistent flavor.
2. Create an 80/20 single medium grind from semi-frozen beef brisket pieces. Weigh the resulting grind (in lbs) and multiply the above recipe by that number.
3. Place the water and liquid smoke in a cup, add the weighed out ingredients, and blend (I use an immersion blender). Put in fridge.
4. In your meat mixer or kitchenaid with a paddle attachment, add the grind and mix for 8 minutes.
5. Load in your stuffer, make your links, and put in the dehydrator for one hour at 125F.
6. Raise temp to 140 for 1 hour (ramp up to help with collagen/meat binding)
7. Raise temp to 155 for 2 hours
8. Raise temp to 160 for 2 hours (or until internal temperature is at 160)
9. Lower temp to 140 for 8 hours (to complete drying).
10. Remove from dehydrator, quickly spray with cold water, then leave in fridge for an hour. You can take a sample now.
11. Flavor will continue to improve for the next two days as you leave them uncovered in the fridge. Then vacuum pack and you're good to go!

That's it for now! Will post how it turns out tomorrow after it's rested in the fridge for about an hour.

 

[geostriata]

Results are in!

For this, I had 3 experiments:

• Right: 11 hour cooking schedule (the above schedule, but the drying phase was 5 hours).
• Middle: 14 hour cooking schedule (as described)
• Left: 14 hour cooking schedule, but before the final 8 hours of cooking, the stick rests in the fridge for at least 12 hours.

Here are the results:

• Right: Flavor was OK, texture wasn't as good. This one failed the snap test.
• Middle: Flavor was a bit off, texture was a bit better on some ways but also tasted drier. This one also failed the snap test.
• Left: Flavor was best, texture was best (less dry tasting than middle), and this partially passed the snap test (some portions failed, others snapped and it's easier when colder).

This is fascinating because the last test was on a whim. I simply added a bit from the last batch to compare. I'm definitely going with this next time. There must be something going on, where stabilizing for a bit in the fridge or getting it colder helps with drying somehow. Fascinating!

For next time:

• Reduce overall cooking time to 12 hours to reduce dryness a tad, using the following schedule:
  • 1hr at 125
  • 1hr at 140
  • 2hr at 155
  • 1hr at 160
  • (Rest in fridge for 12 to 24 hours)
  • 7hr at 140

 

[geostriata]

Finally coming back to this. I've since learned and tried a few things, so I'm ready to try to tackle this once again. I'm determined to figure this out!

First, the above accidental success was due to moisture equalization. When I placed it in my fridge for a while, it equalized the moisture. When I further dehydrated the meat, it was more effective because the casing no longer blocked drying so much. I had a degree of case hardening, it seems.
So I proceeded with fermentation, knowing that it would involve more humidity in the process, and because it is what was recommended above. My steps:

1. Above seasoning mix with 1/4tsp culture per pound of meat after activating in water
2. Ferment 24hrs @ 95F and 90% relative humidity
3. Put a fan in my smoker to circulate air more. Since I know it dries less well than my dehydrator.
4. Start at 105 for 1 hr (no smoke), then 125 for 1.5hrs (little smoke), then 135 for 1 hr (add a cup of water to chamber), then 155 and add probe to meat. Take it out when meat hits 155.

Result: Taste was not great. Definitely more tang due to fermentation, but no less dry than my other method after this amount of time. Also, I think the off taste is possibly because it took too long for fermentation to ramp up either because of sodium erythorbate or not enough dextrose in my seasoning mix.

Conclusion: One step forward (recognizing need for moisture equalization), two steps backwards: Fast fermentation or using the smoker to dry is not going to get me what I want. I'm thinking:

• Go back to the dehydrator. I've got my flavor where I want it, and the dehydrator is more effective for drying, so the smoker doesn't add anything.
• Fermentation got the ph down, but I didn't notice an impact on snap.

So I think for next time, I will:

1. Use a leaner blend of meat (maybe 90/10 instead of 70/30).
2. Dry slower and longer. I'm going to take daveomak 's suggestion and try a 20+ hour cycle: 115/2hr, 135/2hr, 140/14hrs. I want it wrinkled and snapping. I'll also equalize a sample in the fridge after about 4 hours at 140. Then I'll repeat the process for that sample.
3. If the above doesn't work, I'll return to fermentation I think. Dry-cure it like salami and see if that does the trick. And of course, remove sodium erythorbate from recipe and add 3g dextrose per pound (duh!)

Of course, happy if anyone here has any advice.

 

[BGKYSmoker]

After smoking hang your sticks for 4-5 days at room temp.

140/14 hrs is pretty long, even 90/10 you can risk a fat-out

smoke on

 

[geostriata]

After smoking hang your sticks for 4-5 days at room temp.

140/14 hrs is pretty long, even 90/10 you can risk a fat-out

smoke on

Thanks for the advice! I'll try that with the current batch. I'll hang this batch up and see what happens in 4-5 days. Fingers crossed!

In the meantime, I also started looking at @indiaswamp version here: https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/pepperoni-and-romano-snack-sticks.324288/. More and more, I'm thinking I need it in a drying chamber to really get it dry like I like it. This approach doesn't employ more than a few hours of smoking, so less risk of fat out as you say. Something like:

1. Ferment per LHP-DRY or F-RM-52 instructions
2. 115-120/1.5hrs, 130F/1hr, 150F until IT hits 136F
3. Drying chamber 55F, 80% RH for 14 days.

 

[geostriata]

Currently got my fermentation batch in the drying chamber. Unfortunately, I think fermentation is not the answer. My target beef stick has a ph around 5 and wrinkles, whereas my fermented sticks are at a ph of 4 or so and I presume due to the period of high humidity @90F, they don't have wrinkles. The depth of taste is remarkable change with fermentation, but the tang gets in the way of the pepperoni flavor a bit... not what I'm looking for in general, but also not bad. I'll have to dabble in this further once I figure how to get closer to my target beef stick. Possibly after 14 days or so of drying at 55F/80% RH, I'll think differently.

 

[SmokinEdge]

If you have a decent humidity hanging is fine, otherwise I wrap them in pink paper or just put them in a paper bag and rest a week or so in the fridge. Firms them right up.

 

[geostriata]

If you have a decent humidity hanging is fine, otherwise I wrap them in pink paper or just put them in a paper bag and rest a week or so in the fridge. Firms them right up.

Thanks for the suggestion. As part of trying to figure this all out, I converted a beer fermentation freezer to a humidity and temp controlled drying chamber, so I should have that part dialed in. It's been convenient for both meat fermentation and drying. As for the fridge technique, I've it with a paper bag, but didn't have much success (although it did help with moisture equalization and case hardening when I overdid things a bit!). So far, BGKYSmoker 's suggestion of simply hanging at room temp seems to be getting it firmer, in fact.

I ordered some pink paper to see if that makes a difference. Possibly your recommendation is absolutely correct, but it's not working because I'm messing up elsewhere...

There's also a curious phenomenon that I don't quite fully understand. I have been able to get these sticks dry enough, but the few instances where they were snapping and firm enough, they tasted awful. Like "bad dry" and tasting like sawdust. I think there were three factors contributing to this, relating to different experiments along the way (this marks my 26th batch!):

1. Grinding too fine. Despite everything I seem to read in most places, I like a one-and-done semi coarse grind the best. It seems to create nice texture and fatty flavor pockets that I like in the stick. If I grind too fine, a bit of "joy" is lost from the stick.
2. Too lean. This is one that I vacillate on a bit. My current belief is that too much fat makes it floppy, and too little fat makes it taste awful, but I'm reconsidering the fat=floppy part of that. I've been grinding brisket, so my lean/fat ratio is normally around 30/70, but I've been trying higher and lower. I think I won't try anything below 25/75 again, so I think the key is to somehow get it fatty, but not floppy. But then again, maybe it is good to make a leaner good tasting beef stick... In any case, when I go lower than 25/75, I always get something bad-tasting, even if it's dry...
3. Fat-out. Dry due to accidental fat-out during experimentation. Getting it really dry via heat excessive heat is not the answer. Fat-out is always bad.

Ah well, I'll keep trying...

 

[SmokinEdge]

Thanks for the suggestion. As part of trying to figure this all out, I converted a beer fermentation freezer to a humidity and temp controlled drying chamber, so I should have that part dialed in. It's been convenient for both meat fermentation and drying. As for the fridge technique, I've it with a paper bag, but didn't have much success (although it did help with moisture equalization and case hardening when I overdid things a bit!). So far, BGKYSmoker 's suggestion of simply hanging at room temp seems to be getting it firmer, in fact.

I ordered some pink paper to see if that makes a difference. Possibly your recommendation is absolutely correct, but it's not working because I'm messing up elsewhere...

There's also a curious phenomenon that I don't quite fully understand. I have been able to get these sticks dry enough, but the few instances where they were snapping and firm enough, they tasted awful. Like "bad dry" and tasting like sawdust. I think there were three factors contributing to this, relating to different experiments along the way (this marks my 26th batch!):

1. Grinding too fine. Despite everything I seem to read in most places, I like a one-and-done semi coarse grind the best. It seems to create nice texture and fatty flavor pockets that I like in the stick. If I grind too fine, a bit of "joy" is lost from the stick.
2. Too lean. This is one that I vacillate on a bit. My current belief is that too much fat makes it floppy, and too little fat makes it taste awful, but I'm reconsidering the fat=floppy part of that. I've been grinding brisket, so my lean/fat ratio is normally around 30/70, but I've been trying higher and lower. I think I won't try anything below 25/75 again, so I think the key is to somehow get it fatty, but not floppy. But then again, maybe it is good to make a leaner good tasting beef stick... In any case, when I go lower than 25/75, I always get something bad-tasting, even if it's dry...
3. Fat-out. Dry due to accidental fat-out during experimentation. Getting it really dry via heat excessive heat is not the answer. Fat-out is always bad.

Ah well, I'll keep trying...

Garbage in and garbage out. It’s in the process. Drying is a separate issue. The flavor is either there or not. Drying techniques will not make a bad sausage good.

 

[geostriata]

Garbage in and garbage out. It’s in the process. Drying is a separate issue. The flavor is either there or not. Drying techniques will not make a bad sausage good.

Drying won't make a bad sausage good, but bad drying/cooking can make a good sausage bad. That's my problem. Other than when I try a crazy experiment, my beef sticks taste great and folks like them -- but they're still somewhat floppy. My sticks should snap with three fingers (thumb between index and ring). So I'm trying to figure that part out.

So I'm pretty happy with my recipe. I just keep trying things on the drying side that don't make it better, and often make it worse (i.e., sometimes making batches of bad sausage in trying to make a past good sausage batches even better).

 

[geostriata]

After smoking hang your sticks for 4-5 days at room temp.

140/14 hrs is pretty long, even 90/10 you can risk a fat-out

smoke on

Oh my god. It's only been a couple of days, and the difference is amazing. I think this is it. I can't believe I haven't tried something so simple! I've tried this in the fridge, but never at room temp. It makes a big difference!

(Edit: It looks like the above only seems to work well for fermented, for me).