Nitrate/Nitrite Discussion

[BjornEK]

The science says that yes it can work, however major hurdles exist with batch to batch consistency and flavor issues. Botulism is a very serious thing, it’s one of the most lethal toxins known on planet earth. I’m hoping they have this figured out 100% so nobody gets sick or worse. Up until now only nitrite was known to eliminate botulism toxin formation, so question is, is there an element of nitrite involved or not? If not this is truly ground breaking meat science. If not it’s just a repackaged celery powder. I’ll keep using my #1 and #2 cures until enough folks have tried it, even then it’s just to expensive.

Sorry for my English...

Exactly!
If Ecocure really protects against botulism toxin formation they have to prove it in a lab environment, and publish the result. Just claiming is far from enough.
Nitrates also protects against Listeria. Listeria can also kill you.
As a norwegian I am puzzled that a company selling their products in the US dare to claim protection against botulism toxin without publishing scientific evidence.
From what i've heard about the US legal system I would guess that one person getting seriously ill or ending up dead from Botulism or Listeria is enough to put the company out of business.

 

[Tinner340]

Cajuneric , Thanks for taking the time to research this topic so thoroughly. Nice job!!

 

[kuroki]

The only other thing that comes to mind is perhaps people are hung up on "nitrites are bad" and overlooking what the replacements are.

It's worth remembering a related phenol compound is the fairly toxic glue used to hold plywood together. Obviously they are not the same product but considering how heavily studied nitrites are, do we really know this is better for us?

 

[BurntWeenie]

cake or death

 

[indaswamp]

cake or death

What's that suppose to mean?

 

[Cajuneric]

Sorry for my English...

Exactly!
If Ecocure really protects against botulism toxin formation they have to prove it in a lab environment, and publish the result. Just claiming is far from enough.
Nitrates also protects against Listeria. Listeria can also kill you.
As a norwegian I am puzzled that a company selling their products in the US dare to claim protection against botulism toxin without publishing scientific evidence.
From what i've heard about the US legal system I would guess that one person getting seriously ill or ending up dead from Botulism or Listeria is enough to put the company out of business.

That's an interesting topic. People who sell curing salts don't have specific product claims that their curing salt (with nitrites) protects against botulism. For instance, Prague Powder #1 doesn't have a certificate stating that it prohibits botulism. All they have is data from other studies that claim Nitrites in food at a certain PPM inhibit the growth of botulism spores. Think of EcoCure the same way. This is a product that's mass produced and distributed worldwide. Lots of companies internationally use and sell this product (mostly commercial producers of cured meats). We don't need a certificate stating that EcoCure protects against botulism, we have the scientific studies that have already determined that.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you didn't take the time to read the studies I've linked. If you did you would see that the protection extends far past C. botulinum. You have E. coli, listeria, C. perfringens, and much more. Before you reply, take some time to research this topic (don't just skim over the information, try to understand it). There's a lot to take in.

 

[BjornEK]

That's an interesting topic. People who sell curing salts don't have scientific claims that their curing salt (with nitrites) protects against botulism. For instance, Prague Powder #1 doesn't have a certificate stating that it prohibits botulism. All they have is data from other studies that claim Nitrites in food at a certain PPM inhibit the growth of botulism spores. Think of EcoCure the same way. This is a product that's mass produced and distributed worldwide. Lots of companies internationally use and sell this product (mostly commercial producers of cured meats). We don't need a certificate stating that EcoCure protects against botulism, we have the scientific studies that have already determined that.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you didn't take the time to read the studies I've linked. If you did you would see that the protection extends far past C. botulinum. You have E. coli, listeria, C. perfringens, and much more. Before you reply, take some time to research this topic (don't just skim over the information, try to understand it). There's a lot to take in.

You are right that it is not needed to have case studies for each and nitrate product on the market because we know from studies that they work.
However, for all the products I have I can find the exact nitrate content on the label.
I tried to find the polyphenol content in Ecocure from pictures of the label, but I was not able to.
I may not have read the links well enough, it was very interesting to read about polyphenols, but I did not find any specific studies for the product.

Sorry for stepping on your toes. I leave you to your mission. Bjorn out.

 

[Cajuneric]

No toe steppin over here. All good!! The sites that I linked specifically talk about the amounts needed to be effective against unwanted pathogens. This information applies to the polyphenol-based curing salts available on the market today.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Thank you Cajuneric for your time and lengthy response, that took a lot of ink and time. I will read through the links you provided.

 

[steveski]

I have tried smoked sausage with every imaginable form of nitr*tes. prague #1 seems to give me the best results with color/texture. I hate rosemary, maybe it's psychological, but i could taste it, in my sausage, and nobody else could, when i used the rosemary based chemical free stuff. My fresh sausage never gets nitr*tes. I tried corned beef with celery for nitrates and it tasted great but was too grey, eat with your eyes as well as your nose and mouth. by the way my grandmother just used a pinch, literally a pinch, of salt peter mixed with a tablespoonish, palm measuring method, of non iodized salt for "5lbs" of meat never saw her use a measuring device but her stuff was exactly the same every time. IMO i don't think it matters where the nitr*tes come from we consume them daily in all our veggies that suck them up with their roots from manufactured fertilizers. Anyone concerned with nitr*tes should give up wine :)

 

[BGKYSmoker]

Way way to much rocket science for me. I'll stick to my way.

 

[Simi Kay]

It contains rosemary extract, which, wait for it, contains nitrates much like celery powder.

They have posted the specific amount of nitrites and nitrates in this product. I do not remember how much, but it is very little, just as much as you would find in other normal spices. That is not what keeps the food safe, it is the PREs that make this a safe product, watch Eric's vid if you want more info, he has done a lot of research.

 

[Simi Kay]

So this is at the root of what I’m asking. What properties of this cure will do:

1) control botulism

2) retain the pink or red color of meat.

These things are or were only known to be performed by the use of nitrites And its reduction. So what exactly is this secretive new concoction of extracts? What have we all been missing? This is the nuts and bolts of this thread. What is it and how does it work, because its defying known science.

It is a completely different science, although not completely new, some companies have been using them for quite some time to make bacon. As Eric states, there are no problems with him, eating nitrites, but he knows that many people are scared of nitrites, and therefore tells them this new option. You can watch Eric's video on it, there he explains it well.

 

[Lorenzoid]

If polyphenols are the key, then just synthesize the polyphenols, determine the effective amount for curing, sell the pure chemical polyphenol cure, and stop with the rosemary-and-whatever-exotic-fruit extract all-natural mumbo jumbo.

 

[Simi Kay]

If polyphenols are the key, then just synthesize the polyphenols, determine the effective amount for curing, sell the pure chemical polyphenol cure, and stop with the rosemary-and-whatever-exotic-fruit extract all-natural mumbo jumbo.

Many of us do want a chemical-free product, we do not always look after the most synthesized, processed, and unnatural products. Therefore the little taste of rosemary does not do anything, besides, I have never been able to taste it.

 

[BGKYSmoker]

Way too much rocket science for me.
I dont build war planes anymore.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Many of us do want a chemical-free product, we do not always look after the most synthesized, processed, and unnatural products. Therefore the little taste of rosemary does not do anything, besides, I have never been able to taste it.

I understand. I'm just venting my frustration like others here that the chemical mechanism underlying the "natural extract" needs to be investigated, quantified, etc., so it can be used in a more controlled way, as have many beneficial chemicals used in food science. That is what food science is about. Processing foods and synthesizing compounds originally found in nature are what enables us to feed the world, safely. I am here to learn how to cure meat based on the science.

Also, I see nothing un-natural about chemicals. The whole world is made up of chemicals. Whether it's celery extract or purified nitrate, rosemary extract or polyphenols or whatever, whether the chemical is carried inside something else or available in pure form, doesn't make it more natural or less natural, as I see it.

 

[Smoke-Chem BBQ]

Also, I see nothing un-natural about chemicals. The whole world is made up of chemicals. Whether it's celery extract or purified nitrate, rosemary extract or polyphenols or whatever, whether the chemical is carried inside something else or available in pure form, doesn't make it more natural or less natural, as I see it.

Yep, that's a pet peeve of all chemists. To claim a product is 'chemical free' means the container can hold nothing more than a perfect vacuum.

When talking about a single, active ingredient, It makes no difference if it was made and purified in a lab or extracted and purified from a natural source.

Where the natural sources differ is that they often aren't purified to a single ingredient; an herbal prep or extract or whatever is usually left as a complex mixture of all kinds of stuff. Sometimes that's good, the other ingredients may also have a positive effect (for example, peanuts have a bunch of related polyphenols in them). Sometimes it doesn't matter. Sometimes the other ingredients are harmful (for example, does your peanut extract also contain the potent carcinogen aflatoxin A?). There is no hard and fast rule, these things must be determined by testing.