Non fat dried milk

[DougE]

I avoid the whole high heat/low heat NFDM issue and just use potato starch on occasions where I use a binder at all. The grocery stores around here carry Bob's Redmill potato starch. I also have a pound of PhosThis! I got recently but haven't tried it in anything yet.

 

[hog warden]

This keeps getting better. I have a jar of the NFDM from Sausage Maker.......and no where on the label or jar does it even mention "high heat". It does on the website, but not on the product itself.

Also have a box of Instant non fat dried milk from Walmart. Other than the word "instant", a person would have no clue they are different.

If there are 3 or 4 different types of this NFDM, and only one is to be used, then the books and recipes really ought to say so. And each product ought to be labeled as such.

 

[BGKYSmoker]

IMO, phosphates trump NFDM powder....and it is not even close. I use STPP - sodium tripoly Phosphste simply because I can get it locally at a butcher supply house fairly cheaply, but there are many that work well....

Damn
I cant use the TSP from Homepeepot that my dad used to scrub the garage floor with? Yes I know not the food grade.

 

[BGKYSmoker]

This keeps getting better. I have a jar of the NFDM from Sausage Maker.......and no where on the label or jar does it even mention "high heat". It does on the website, but not on the product itself.

Also have a box of Instant non fat dried milk from Walmart. Other than the word "instant", a person would have no clue they are different.

If there are 3 or 4 different types of this NFDM, and only one is to be used, then the books and recipes really ought to say so. And each product ought to be labeled as such.

Just use the wally, grind fine. your not going past 170*...are ya?

 

[indaswamp]

Damn
I cant use the TSP from Homepeepot that my dad used to scrub the garage floor with?

Nope- not food grade....

 

[DougE]

None of the books and none of the online videos from the "experts" even mention there is a difference. I'd think 99% of those trying it would not be aware there is a difference and are using the low temp by default because they can buy it local and are not aware there is a difference.

Most resources on sausage making assume you have at least a basic idea of how the process is done. You are also assuming that 99% have not bothered to do any research into the craft and just do whatever the recipe says in a clueless fashion.

Trying to get to the bottom of another confusing issue. If the high temp version matters, then all books and recipes ought to say so......and why.

See above. They maybe expect you have done your homework and don't feel that every detail needs to be covered.

I am not in any way debating High VS. Low temp. NFDM differences, if any but just giving some perspective to what recipes include or not.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Kinda reminds me of the high temp cheese debate vs a cheese like sharp or extra sharp cheddar.

 

[geostriata]

I'll admit, I've been using low-temp version in a few batches. Switching to high-temp now to see how much difference it makes. Though this may also convince me to try soy protein isolate now to avoid this issue while I get a bit of umami/msg to the mix as a nice side effect...

As an aside, I also noticed a low-fat dry milk used in a (questionable) internet recipe. It'd probably work worse, but one does wonder what impact it'd make...

 

[Fueling Around]

Not used every binder out there but STPP seems to work more noticeably (faster maybe?) to me than others. Also NFDM definitely has a slight flavor and color impact.

IMO, phosphates trump NFDM powder....and it is not even close. I use STPP - sodium tripoly Phosphste simply because I can get it locally at a butcher supply house fairly cheaply, but there are many that work well....

I have not tried milk powder. My only batch of sausage with a binder used potato starch. I was not impressed with the texture. I gave away all of it.
My next round will be with phosphates later this year when I try to replicate Costco dinner franks.

Kinda reminds me of the high temp cheese debate vs a cheese like sharp or extra sharp cheddar.

I was thinking the same thing Eric.
I tried researching the denatured whey proteins from high temp milk powder and it led me down another rabbit into high temp cheese. I am no means an organic chemist. The similarity I noticed was high temperature survival without changing or changing further than had already been done in the processing. I don't know the temperature lines.
I don't have my Marianski green book down here. I did purchase the Kutas book and nowhere is the mention of special milk powder. I find that odd as the later revisions changed recipes to call out The Sausage Maker (TSM) Instacure #1 and #2 as ingredients, but not the TSM milk powder.

 

[SmokinEdge]

I have not tried milk powder. My only batch of sausage with a binder used potato starch. I was not impressed with the texture. I gave away all of it.
My next round will be with phosphates later this year when I try to replicate Costco dinner franks.


I was thinking the same thing Eric.
I tried researching the denatured whey proteins from high temp milk powder and it led me down another rabbit into high temp cheese. I am no means an organic chemist. The similarity I noticed was high temperature survival without changing or changing further than had already been done in the processing. I don't know the temperature lines.
I don't have my Marianski green book down here. I did purchase the Kutas book and nowhere is the mention of special milk powder. I find that odd as the later revisions changed recipes to call out The Sausage Maker (TSM) Instacure #1 and #2 as ingredients, but not the TSM milk powder.

Me thinks it’s all hooy. What make high temp cheese high temp is it’s dry moisture level. But if you take extra sharp cheddar (most dry of the cheddar line) and cube it up place it on a cookie sheet and into the fridge for a day or two it gets dryer and is great in sausage. The point is that it’s dry. Well NFDM is well, dry. I don’t use it at all these days because IMO there are better options, but that said when I did use it I always used store bought and it worked just fine. My sausage never goes IT over 160-170 even on the grill, smoked between 145-151, so not a high temp situation.

My binder of choice is phosphate or potato starch (starch for its gel quality if I want that)

 

[indaswamp]

My sausage never goes IT over 160-170 even on the grill, smoked between 145-151, so not a high temp situation.

The term "high temp. Dry milk powder" refers to how it was dried....at higher temperature. Not to the temperature the sausage it is used in is cooked at. There is some science to it, as we all know higher temperatures do a better job at denaturing proteins. At least that is what I have seen from looking into it....

 

[SmokinEdge]

The term "high temp. Dry milk powder" refers to how it was dried....at higher temperature. Not to the temperature the sausage it is used in is cooked at. There is some science to it, as we all know higher temperatures do a better job at denaturing proteins. At least that is what I have seen from looking into it....

That could well be, I won’t argue.
That said, I never saw a problem with store bought NFDM other than a small flavor addition. I do agree that the dryness of the product could make a difference but NFDM is all pretty dang dry. I understand the difference in processing but to me it matters not because I think NFDM is not worth the use. Much better ways to go. That’s just me

 

[chopsaw]

My only batch of sausage with a binder used potato starch. I was not impressed with the texture.

First time I used the starch , I used the recommended amount by weight , and ended up with not good results . Same thing , bad texture .
That's why I only add what it needs to come together with any of it .
In my experience it takes very little potato starch to get a good bind . I do 2 1/2 pound batches , and have used as little as 2 tsp .

My next round will be with phosphates later this year when I try to replicate Costco dinner franks.

I use different ones for different things . Phosphates are a good choice for that in my opinion .
Sodium erythorbate also helps with the texture in a " frank " type sausage .

 

[GatorAGR]

This may be a dumb question as I've only made two batches of sausage in my life, but what exactly are we trying to bind? I've done one batch without binder and the other with and didn't notice a difference. I mixed both to the point of stick to the glove. So are we trying to bind other ingredients for taste or is it really to bind the meat itself.

 

[Dustin Dorsey]

Some folks will say you don't need a binder. If you mix well enough you'll extract enough protein to bind the sausage. But it helps hedge your bets. I think it helps maintain the emulsion of fat and meat, keeps water in the meat, and helps bind the casing to the meat especially during the cooking process.

People selling sausage by the pound are interested in keeping the water in there for extra weight and stretching the product sometimes to the detriment of the product. The Marianski book talks about this in the early part of the book when he discusses sausage additives. Home hobbyists like myself just want to make the best product they can and find a use for their trimmings from barbecue meat. I find I get a juicier sausage with the binder and a better texture.

 

[zwiller]

I call binders insurance. I tend to undermix and feel binders make up for it.

Kinda funny to see both pop up in same thread so thought this would be a good place for this... Heads up if you combine STPP and cheese you might run into issues. STPP or "phosphate" is used to make processed cheese. I used processed cheese (Kroger deli) in a batch of SS and think the STPP interacted with it and sorta over processed these cheese. Got a little loose and a little fat out. That being said, the cheese flavor was the best I ever had. While I am at it, cheese CANNOT be sent through the grinder by itself. Oh what a mess. LOL

 

[indaswamp]

protein extraction is salt concentration dependent......UNLESS you use a binder; which either adds soluble protein directly, or increases the pH and affects the binding properties of the meat chemically.

If you use 2% salt, you can make a great sausage without a binder. And if you use a commercially bought pre-mix sausage seasoning, it is fairly safe to say you are using 2% salt or more.

I do not like 2% salt in a sausage, this is one of the reasons I mix my own. I use between 1.2~1.4% for all my smoke and fresh sausages. The new low salt sausage I make, I use 0.4% salt.

So, using a pre-mix? Binder is optional.

 

[indaswamp]

You can also add the seasoning and salt to the lean only and mix for protein extraction. This increases the salt percentage on the lean during mixing for better protein extraction. Then you can blend in the fat. This is exactly what I do for my low salt sausage. Once those proteins are extracted, they will stay in solution for binding the meat....