Nitrate/Nitrite Discussion

[DougE]

I got an idea, why not just let Cajuneric come in and explain how this stuff gives the same effects as nitrites without nitrites.

 

[Brokenhandle]

So gonna think out loud first, then ask a question.
So this thread is mainly in reaction to the new ecocure, I believe daveomak posted? Didn't pay alot of attention...mainly price based.

My question...what or how is this discussion gonna help teach our new members about safe curing practices? It's over the heads as far as newbies are concerned.

Ryan

 

[Nefarious]

One has to be very careful here. Nitrites and nitrates happen to be the only known way to prevent botulism, but it may not be the only way. People continue to experiment and find new ways to do old tricks all the time.

 

[DougE]

My question...what or how is this discussion gonna help teach our new members about safe curing practices? It's over the heads as far as newbies are concerned.

Can people more experienced not have discussions about more advanced topics? Or is everything we discuss supposed to be at the most basic level?

 

[Brokenhandle]

Can people more experienced not have discussions about more advanced topics? Or is everything we discuss supposed to be at the most basic level?

You may. But...how is this helping new members? You didn't answer that part of the question. From my time lurking here to the time I joined up to current time. I remember many tiffs between members...on topics such as this...nothing was solved. This seems to be about the new ecocure that was posted... at least that's my take on it. If it's new...it's personal opinion on whether it's liked or a good or not. Some members are trying it.

Ryan

 

[indaswamp]

It contains rosemary extract, which, wait for it, contains nitrates much like celery powder.

Got a link DougE? I'm not calling you out or anything like that, just curious because my understanding is that rosemary extract contains organic acids that are polyphenols and it is this that has has the preservative effect.

 

[DougE]

You may. But...how is this helping new members? You didn't answer that part of the question. From my time lurking here to the time I joined up to current time. I remember many tiffs between members...on topics such as this...nothing was solved. This seems to be about the new ecocure that was posted... at least that's my take on it. If it's new...it's personal opinion on whether it's liked or a good or not. Some members are trying it.

Ryan

If we hash out the exact curing properties of this stuff, it will help them to make more informed decisions on what curing agents they want to use. So far, all my research says that rosemary extract is a source of nitrates. If somehow this product has eliminated them from the rosemary extract and yet still has the same curing properties of color fixing and botulism protection, I want to know how, that's important.

 

[jcam222]

Got a link DougE? I'm not calling you out or anything like that, just curious because my understanding is that rosemary extract contains organic acids that are polyphenols and it is this that has has the preservative effect.

They video essentially does say the polyphenols have anti microbial effects which are how it protects against the bad microbes.

 

[jcam222]

If we hash out the exact curing properties of this stuff, it will help them to make more informed decisions on what curing agents they want to use. So far, all my research says that rosemary extract is a source of nitrates. If somehow this product has eliminated them from the rosemary extract and yet still has the same curing properties of color fixing and botulism protection, I want to know how, that's important.

I would think that some of what you want to know is likely proprietary on a new product like this. Perhaps not but one would think so.

 

[Brokenhandle]

If we hash out the exact curing properties of this stuff, it will help them to make more informed decisions on what curing agents they want to use. So far, all my research says that rosemary extract is a source of nitrates. If somehow this product has eliminated them from the rosemary extract and yet still has the same curing properties of color fixing and botulism protection, I want to know how, that's important.

You once told me your research pointed you to pop's brine wasn't a good way to go.

 

[DougE]

You once told me your research pointed you to pop's brine wasn't a good way to go.

That is not part of this discussion and you speak as if I have changed my mind on that

 

[indaswamp]

You may. But...how is this helping new members?

Ecocure is a new product on the market, hopefully through this discussion they will learn more about it.

 

[Brokenhandle]

Ecocure is a new product on the market, hopefully through this discussion they will learn more about it.

Through this discussion...no. But through some of the new members using and trying it maybe. As far as the safety aspects of it...that will take time .

Ryan

 

[indaswamp]

Doing a deep dive....and I'm not finding much other than this:

Abstract​

Nowadays, there is an interest in the consumption of food without synthetic additives and rather with the use of natural preservatives. In this regard, natural extracts of the Lamiaceae family, such as rosemary, have been studied because of its bioactive properties. Several studies have reported that rosemary extracts show biological bioactivities such as hepatoprotective, antifungal, insecticide, antioxidant and antibacterial. It is well known that the biological properties in rosemary are mainly due to phenolic compounds. However, it is essential to take into account that these biological properties depend on different aspects. Their use in foods is limited because of their odour, colour and taste. For that reason, commercial methods have been developed for the preparation of odourless and colourless antioxidant compounds from rosemary. Owing to the new applications of natural extracts in preservatives, this review gives a view on the use of natural extract from rosemary in foods and its effect on preservative activities. Specifically, the relationship between the structure and activity (antimicrobial and antioxidant) of the active components in rosemary are being reviewed.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30181448/

So it seems to be that the mechanism for protection against botulism in rosemary extract is independant from nitrates or nitrites.....

 

[jcam222]

Doing a deep dive....and I'm not finding much other than this:



https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30181448/

So it seems to be that the mechanism for protection against botulism in rosemary extract is independant from nitrates or nitrites.....

Great find

 

[indaswamp]

I know that in parma ham, no nitrates or nitrates are permitted, yet the red cured color still sets. This is due to the natural enzymatic breakdown of the nitrogen rich proteins which create by products; some of which are ammonia. That ammonia can be further changed chemically within the ham to nitrates and/or nitrites.

 

[Sven Svensson]

Here’s my totally subjective, I’ll-informed, non-scientific comment. I immediately ordered Ecocure after watching the video because I was curious. No agenda or strong opinions. I thought, I have no curing meat ego, I’ll give it a shot and report back.

I’ve never liked the smell of cure #1 or #2. To me it’s a potent chemical/metallic odor. I’ve used both for years. The only thing I make in which I can semi taste it is cured beef jerky. Since my beef jerky never lasts long I stopped using cure. I often refrigerate it anyway.

My Ecocure arrived Friday. I immediately opened it to smell it. It instantly reminded me of cocoa. There wasn’t a hint of a chemical smell. It tastes like salt and some kind of spice or herbs. Tasting it is ever-so-slightly metallic and the aftertaste lasted a good 30 minutes. Keep in mind I’m the guy who thinks cilantro tastes like soap.

On the bottle it says it’s for those who do not like the taste of celery and “…are trying to avoid synthetic chemical nitrates.” It does not say it does not contain nitrates or that it contains them. I’m assuming the bottle, by law, needs to say it has nitrates? Maybe I’m totally wrong on that. Reading this maybe since it’s natural nitrates it doesn’t need to be mentioned? The Ecocure amount is 1% of total weight to be mixed in after all other ingredients are combined.

Again, this is purely subjective and I’m not a smart man. I can’t even smoke a brisket and one of my beautiful chickens fell off the rotisserie once. My first attempt at bacon tasted like a tire fire. And I can’t remember the last time I stayed at a Holiday Inn.

 

[indaswamp]

It is my understanding the labeling laws in the US state that only synthetic nitrates/nitrites must be stated on the packaging if they are used. Naturally occurring do not have to be labeled.

 

[Sven Svensson]

Yeah, I think it’s interesting, creative wording. If you did find a new method containing no nitrates at all, you’d brag about it all over your bottle.

 

[DougE]

It is my understanding the labeling laws in the US state that only synthetic nitrates/nitrites must be stated on the packaging if they are used. Naturally occurring do not have to be labeled.

Mine, too. The non-synthetic stuff from plant sources like celery powder are just considered additives/spices even though they contain the same compounds as their synthetic counterparts. This ecocure may be a completely new thing nobody has figured out up until now and achieves the same curing effects without any nitrites/nitrates, that's what I'm questioning. What action is taking place to achieve the same results as nitrates if there are none?