40° - 140° in 4 hours discussion

[diggingdogfarm]

if you keep it cold and get it to 140 degrees internal temp within 4 hours when cooking you do not need cure.

What's the 'authoritative' reference to back this rule up?
I have never been able to find one.


~Martin

 

[pineywoods]

What's the 'authoritative' reference to back this rule up?
I have never been able to find one.
~Martin

If you follow the rules for fresh ground meat according to the USDA I would think that would be an "authoritative reference"

 

[diggingdogfarm]

If you follow the rules for fresh ground meat according to the USDA I would think that would be an "authoritative reference"

Okay, can you please point me to that particular rule, because, as I said above, I've never been able to find it.




~Martin

 

[pops6927]

What's the 'authoritative' reference to back this rule up?
I have never been able to find one.
~Martin

I have researched this and there is two references that are given:

1) from:

Kerri Harris (Coordinator)

HACCP Alliance National Coordinator

Texas A&M University

120 Rosenthal

2471 TAMU

College Station, TX 77843-2471

Phone: (979) 862-3643

Fax: (979) 862-3075

kharris@tamu.edu

 Kerri B. Harris <kharris@neo.tamu.edu> wrote:

The following information is provided by FSIS in Appendix A.  Hopefully, it will help you determine the come up times for the temperatures that you are using.

Heating Deviations and Slow Come Up Time

Determining the appropriate disposition of products following heating deviations can be even more

difficult than determining the disposition of product after a cooling deviation. Heating deviations, which most

often involve slow come-up time or an inordinate dwell time within the optimum temperature range for

microorganism growth, can foster the multiplication of many pathogens. This multiplication sometimes can be

so prodigious that even recooking may be ineffective in rendering the product safe. Also, certain toxigenic

bacteria can release toxins into the product. Some of these toxins, such as those of Staphylococcus aureus, are

extremely heat stable and are not inactivated by normal recooking temperatures.

Further, the sampling of product following a heating deviation may not yield sufficient information to

determine the safety of the product in question. Heating deviations can favor the multiplication of many types

of bacteria. It would be difficult and expensive to sample for all of them.

Depending on the circumstances, establishments may want to use computer modeling to estimate the

relative multiplication of bacteria. For example, in a past incident involving an extreme heating deviation,

product was put in an oven in which the temperature was inadvertently set to 95°F for about 12 hours.

Computer modeling was easily applied in this case because much of the dwell time was at one temperature.

The Agency determined that within a 6 hour time frame (with other growth conditions assumed to be

favorable), the relative multiplication of many pathogens of concern could have exceeded five logs. Clearly

the product could not be salvaged by reprocessing and was therefore destroyed.

Under changing conditions of temperature, however, computer modeling becomes more difficult. One

approach is to average lag/log times over small increments such as 5° and add these times to get an

approximation of possible total relative growth over a larger increment of time. Establishments must keep in

mind that the population of bacteria before processing is generally unknown and that assumptions in the high

range often are used as input parameters in the modeling.

Establishments should ultimately rely upon the expertise of a processing authority to determine the

severity of heating deviations and subsequent appropriate disposition of the product in question. Dwell times

of greater than 6 hours in the 50°F to 130°F range should be viewed as especially hazardous, as this

temperature range can foster substantial growth of many pathogens of concern. And, a knowledge of the

specific product and factors that would favor or inhibit the growth of various bacteria is essential.

2) from:

Meat and Poultry Hotline MPHotline.FSIS@fsis.usda.gov

Good morning,

Thank you for writing the USDA's Meat and Poultry Hotline.

We recommend consumers not leaving any perishable food (including raw meat) in the "Danger Zone" more than two hours. Use an appliance thermometer to monitor the air temperature in the smoker or grill to be sure the heat stays between 225 and 300 °F throughout the cooking process. If you are concern that your smoker is taking too long to reach 225 F, check with the manufacturer.

For more information about Smoking Meat and Poultry, visit http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Smoking_Meat_and_Poultry/index.asp

Sincerely,

Webmaster

USDA Meat and Poultry Hotline

Because of the conflict, I wrote back to both resources and re-questioned, and received this:

Reply 1:

Butch.Johnson@dshs.state.tx.us

to me, Susan.Tennyson, Thomas.Lansford, Tony.Martin, Adam.Buuck

Dear pops6927:

Thank you for your inquiry requesting supporting documentation for the maximum time for a smoker environment temperature zone to get the meat from 40° to 140° safely.

Short Answer:  To avoid even the possible appearance of a conflict of interest, employees associated with the Texas State Meat and Poultry Inspection Program (State Program) cannot provide supporting documentation to meet regulatory requirements.  On the other hand, the State Program provides a listing in Appendix A of the attached Consumer Guide  as assistance for you; we do not represent this as an “approved list,” and we do not assume any responsibility for the actions or inactions of any Person in this list.  Additionally, using an internet search engine for the term “Process Authority” may provide sources that may be of help to you.

Discussion:

The Texas State Meat and Poultry Inspection Program (State Program) is responsible for regulating the livestock slaughter and meat/poultry processing industry.  State Program employees verify that establishments meet regulatory requirements, and we document and report any noncompliance that may occur.  To avoid real or even the appearance of a potential conflict of interest, we prohibit State Program employees from advising, advocating, directing, endorsing, proposing, recommending, suggesting, or in any other manner telling establishments the “how-to” aspects of constructing, operating, and maintaining facilities or operations to meet any regulatory requirement.

Establishments are responsible for constructing, operating, maintaining, etc. their facilities and operations to comply with regulatory requirements.  We cannot accept the following statement as supporting documentation for any of the establishment’s decisions: “I did it that way because that is who/ what/ when/ where/ how the State Program employee told me to do it.”

On the other hand, State Program employees will provide assistance to establishments by explaining regulatory requirements, providing contact information of groups that may assist the establishment, providing information on training opportunities, etc.

The State Program provides a listing in Appendix A of the attached Consumer Guide  as assistance for you; we do not represent this as an “approved list,” and we do not assume any responsibility for the actions or inactions of any Person in this list.  Additionally, using an internet search engine for the term “Process Authority” may provide sources that may be of help to you.

Sincerely,

Dr. Howard C. "Butch" Johnson, DVM, MS, DACVPM

Director, Texas State Meat and Poultry Inspection Program and

Manager, Meat Safety Assurance Unit

(512) 834-6760   FAX: (512) 834-6763

Butch.Johnson@dshs.state.tx.us

Visit our Website:  http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/msa/

Mail Address:                                                             Direct Delivery Physical Address: (USPS Mail NOT ACCEPTED)

Meat Safety Assurance Unit - Mail Code 1872        Meat Safety Assurance Unit - Mail Code 1872

Texas Department of State Health Services            Texas Department of State Health Services

PO Box 149347                                                          8407 Wall Street

Austin, TX 78714-9347                                              Austin, TX  78754

reply 2:

Meat and Poultry Hotline MPHotline.FSIS@fsis.usda.gov

Good morning Mr. Fassett,

The USDA’s 2-hour rule is more conservative than the guidelines directed at foodservice or the food industry, to allows for extra caution towards consumers handling foods at home. The guidelines used by food service are set by your state health department. Each State makes its own rules, often based on FDA’s retail model food code.

You can access the Food Code at http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/FoodCode2009/default.htm

If you would to know the guidelines used by processors under FSIS’ inspection, you may want to check with our Policy Development Division, at 1-800-233-3935.

Sincerely,

Webmaster

USDA Meat and Poultry Hotline

As interpreted by our Safety Expert:

• 
  

• Chef JimmyJ 
• WHAT THIN BLUE SMOKE!?!
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This is my " Go To " statement...

A Guideline like 40-140 in 4...aka the Rule (less letters than Guideline) is, Easy to remember, Provides a margin of Error, Has been gleaned from information provided by Multiple sources, including but not limited to, Professional Food service organizations, The American Culinary Federation, The ServSafe program, the USDA and Food Service Professionals with Years of Experience... Is, " 40 to 140*F in 4 " written down in any Government Food Service Law Manual, or Word for Word on any fore mentioned Website or Charter?...NO...But it Has been adopted by This Site and others to protect it's members!...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If there is any other more specific reference that can be provided, please post.  Otherwise, we will generally recognize the '40° to 140° in 4 hour' rule as reasonable and accurate between a stated minimum and a stated maximum by professional authorities and will adopt such a rule as standard to this forum.  

 

[diggingdogfarm]

Okay, I have seen those, as well as a couple that are similar, but I've not been able to find any specific rule that says, in a nutshell, when cooking meat, "it's okay as long as 140 degrees is reached in 4 hours."

I've seen it repeated countless times, and I've researched it several times, I've yet to find a concrete and reliable reference that isn't extrapolated from some other 'rule', certainly no distinction between ground meat or whole cuts, or any other distinction for that matter.
And I've certainly never found a concrete reference to it being acceptable for uncured meat smoked at a low temperature (especially ground meat) to dwell within the perfect conditions for the growth of botulinum bacterium for an extended period of time "as long as 140 degrees is reached within 4 hours."

~Martin

 

[chef jimmyj]

Okay, I have seen those, as well as a couple that are similar, but I've not been able to find any specific rule that says, in a nutshell, when cooking meat, "it's okay as long as 140 degrees is reached in 4 hours."
I've seen it repeated countless times, and I've researched it several times, I've yet to find a concrete and reliable reference that isn't extrapolated from some other 'rule', certainly no distinction between ground meat or whole cuts, or any other distinction for that matter.
And I've certainly never found a concrete reference to it being acceptable for uncured meat smoked at a low temperature (especially ground meat) to dwell within the perfect conditions for the growth of botulinum bacterium for an extended period of time "as long as 140 degrees is reached within 4 hours."
~Martin

 I have looked into it extensively...I have read reports until my head hurt and like you have not been able to find any single Word for Word source. When you put all the info together, 40-140 in 4 is a guideline that falls within the recommendation of several authorities... Kind of like Chew each bite of Food 32 Times. Brush your Teeth after Every Meal and Get 8 Hours of Sleep per Night...You can go more or less than the Guidelines...But they are still reasonable and provide for a margin of Safety and Good Health. Have you found anything that totally discredits our Guideline/Rule? It seems to be a never ending problem with Government agencies and Grant funded Researchers... If they want to continue getting funded they have to keep playing with the numbers, find new things for us to worry about and stay just vague enough about their findings to keep everyone confused and asking for more...JJ 

 

[pops6927]

And, although it is pertinent to us, in the broader scope, we are trying to pinpoint one specific rule to fit our needs strictly for smoking when it is a larger issue and, like you say, may be different for ground vs. whole muscle, vs. chopped, etc. so for our narrow band of usage we must extrapolate from other, broader, 'rules' that don't particularly fit what we want them to say.  The above narrows it to a reasonable facsimile of a rule to fit our needs and is within the safety guidelines of minimum and maximums.  The only other thing would be to set up a USDA approved lab and specifically test out specific scenarios for all smoke generating devices on a comprehensive array of meats and conditions to formulate a specific rule or set of rules that would apply strictly to our applications; something I know I myself cannot specifically afford (heck, I can't afford to drive down the street for a free lunch, lol!).

Can we all agree that the 40° to 140° within 4 is a safe and viable guideline?

 

[daveomak]

 Kind of like Chew each bite of Food 32 Times. Brush your Teeth after Every Meal and Get 8 Hours of Sleep per Night...

I was not expecting that comment !!!!!

 

[pops6927]

Hmmmm.... I thought it was 35 times... Houston, we have another problem here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[diggingdogfarm]

Can we all agree that the 40° to 140° within 4 is a safe and viable guideline?

That's a good question, I have no problem with the rule when it comes to most whole cuts, when prep time is included in the equation.
I do think that it's risky and shouldn't be recommend for high risk meats such as uncured meats that are ground, injected, and boned & rolled.
I also think it's potentially risky with some poultry, where the initial bacteria load is un-known.

I get relevant questions quite a lot and it sure would be nice if I could point folks to something concrete.

I'm going to do some more research today.


~Martin

 

[diggingdogfarm]

An example of where I see a probelm with extrapolating rules is, some of those rules aren't qualified in a way that they should be.
We all know that the danger zone is 40 to 140 degrees.
Then when we run across what I think is a very general statement, like "The most common food-handling error is keeping foods for more than four hours between 40F and 140F (4 C and 60 C) — the growth or so-called danger zone for most bacteria."

Okay, so are we talking food that has been cooked to a safe temperature and then left to dwell in the danger zone or are we talking raw, uncooked food that's been left to dwell in the danger zone, there's a BIG difference in my mind!! Common sense would say that, while both are dangerous, it's much more dangerous to allow raw food to dwell in the danger zone for an extended period of time.

"Compliance Guidelines for Cooling Heat-Treated Meat and Poultry Products (Stabilization)

It is very important that cooling be continuous through the given time/temperature control points. Excessive dwell time in the range of 130° to 80°F is especially hazardous, as this is the range of most rapid growth for the clostridia. Therefore cooling between these temperature control points should be as rapid as possible.

During cooling, the product’s maximum internal temperature should not remain between 130°F and 80°F for more than 1.5 hours nor between 80°F and 40°F for more than 5 hours. This cooling rate can be applied universally to cooked products (e.g., partially cooked or fully cooked, intact or non-intact, meat or poultry) and is preferable to (2) below.
Over the past several years, FSIS has allowed product to be cooled according to the following procedures, which are based upon older, less precise data: chilling should begin within 90 minutes after the cooking cycle is completed. All product should be chilled from 120°F (48°C) to 55°F (12.7°C) in no more than 6 hours. Chilling should then continue until the product reaches 40°F (4.4°C); the product should not be shipped until it reaches 40°F (4.4°C). This second cooling guideline is taken from the former (“Requirements for the production of cooked beef, roast beef, and cooked corned beef”, 9 CFR 318.17(h)(10). It yields a significantly smaller margin of safety than the first cooling guideline above, especially if the product cooled is a non-intact product. If an establishment uses this older cooling guideline, it should ensure that cooling is as rapid as possible, especially between 120°F and 80°F, and monitor the cooling closely to prevent deviation. If product remains between 120° F and 80° F more than one hour, compliance with the performance standard is less certain.
The following process may be used for the slow cooling of ready-to-eat meat and poultry cured with nitrite. Products cured with a minimum of 100 ppm ingoing sodium nitrite may be cooled so that the maximum internal temperature is reduced from 130 to 80° F in 5 hours and from 80 to 45° F in 10 hours (15 hours total cooling time).
This cooling process provides a narrow margin of safety. If a cooling deviation occurs, an establishment should assume that their process has exceeded the performance standard for controlling the growth of Clostridium perfringens and take corrective action. The presence of the nitrite, however, should ensure compliance with the performance standard for Clostridium botulinum."

I don't think that it's wise or safe to extrapolate cooling rules for safely cooked food to cooking rules for raw food.

Can this thread be split?


~Martin

 

[alelover]

I always go by the 40-140 in 4 rule. Actually I always get through the danger zone in way less than 4 hours. I also refrigerate cooked food as soon as possible after serving. Not one person has ever gotten ill from my food. So I will stick with those rules. They do seem to work.

 

[BGKYSmoker]

 

[daveomak]

Diggy, morning.....   I think the forum is trying to guide members to a general understanding of food safety....  Especially members that are not trained in food safety and handling.... 

I know my bride had a food handlers license and is more knowledgeable than I am....  Chefs even more so.....

Folks drop in here and are looking to smoke meat and be safe..... The info they glean from this site is better than others and provides a relatively safe set of guidelines for them to continue in their endeavors to smoke food in a safe manner....   It may not be perfect but it is a whole lot better than no educational primer at all...

Hopefully when they do stop in, and are interested in learning more about food safety, they can read up on it or possibly take a food handlers course.....

In my opinion, we are providing a basic understanding of safety.... Those that have questions we answer.....  This forum is basically food safety 101 or somewhere close..... We are not perfect but we are conscientiously making an attempt to provide reasonable information.....  

Dave

 

[chef jimmyj]

Martin, I have to agree there is definitely situations that 1-2 hours in the danger zone is too long never mind 4! But it would be confusing to to provide a different set of time and temp numbers for Fresh Sausage, Cured Sausage, Cured Sausage to be Dried, Chicken Parts, Whole Chicken, Ground Chicken, Whole muscle Beef, Cut Beef , Ground Beef, Injected Beef, Beef that is Punctured with potential pathogen carrying items such as, Garlic and or Fresh Herbs, Salt Brined Beef, Acid Marinated Beef, Salt Rubbed Beef, Rubbed Beef containing no Salt, Washed Beef, Unwashed Beef, then there is all the possibilities for Pork , Lamb, Poultry, Game, Shellfish, Fin Fish, Imported Seafood from questionable Sources, Vegetables...IT goes on...

Few would remember or pay attention and and not to mention all the posts that read, " I injected my Pork butt and let it warm to room temp on the counter based on member recommendations, read it somewhere here, then went into my MES at 225*. After 2 hours the Power went off for thirty minutes then came back on for 2 hours then went off again for 1 hour then back on 1 hour. then I fell asleep and when I woke the clock was blinking so there must have been another power failure. When I checked the IT the Pork was at 205*F and the Bone pulled easily. All household members are in good health and I washed the meat first...Which Guideline for Time and Temperature should I follow and...Is it safe to eat? "

I spent weeks in a Sanitation and Safety class and get 2-3 Food Safety Newsletters each day to learn and keep up to date on the handling possibilities and what could go wrong, people make millions of dollars developing HACCP Programs for major food handler and still...Stuff happens!

If you wish to research and provide Time and Temperature Guidelines for Each of the Meats and Handling Variations including relevant supporting documentation...You are welcome to do so and after review, we will Post it in a permanent Article with full credit given to you. Have at it...

The task is huge and SMF won't pay me Millions or even Pennies to do it, so in an effort to keep our members safe we have a guideline that takes many potential problems into account and boils it down to the 40 to 140 in 4 Rule...JJ

 

[diggingdogfarm]

I hope that nobody thinks that the reason I'm asking these questions is because I'm trying to start trouble.

As I've said above, it's a concern of mine that a general rule such as "40 to 140 in 4" may be used in a way that can seriously endanger someone, especially when there isn't a specified minimum cooking temperature.

Let me give a real world example.
This was the subject of quite some debate at another venue.

A guy "cold smoked" un-cured chicken wings at a temp of 80 to 100 degrees for 3 hours (the most dangerous area of the danger zone), he them finished them in about 45-50 minutes to a safe cooking temperature, the entire process was completed within 4 hours.

Are you comfortable promoting the "40 to 140 in 4" rule in a case like that?
I'm not!
I know what I would do in a case like that, but to assure others that it's okay for meat, especially high risk chicken, to dwell at temps like that for 3 hours, even though recommended finish temps are reached within 4, is, in my opinion, irresponsible.

See why I think it's important to clarify this rule?


~Martin

 

[diggingdogfarm]

Martin, I have to agree there is definitely situations that 1-2 hours in the danger zone is too long never mind 4! But it would be confusing to to provide a different set of time and temp numbers for Fresh Sausage, Cured Sausage, Cured Sausage to be Dried, Chicken Parts, Whole Chicken, Ground Chicken, Whole muscle Beef, Cut Beef , Ground Beef, Injected Beef, Beef that is Punctured with potential pathogen carrying items such as, Garlic and or Fresh Herbs, Salt Brined Beef, Acid Marinated Beef, Salt Rubbed Beef, Rubbed Beef containing no Salt, Washed Beef, Unwashed Beef, then there is all the possibilities for Pork , Lamb, Poultry, Game, Shellfish, Fin Fish, Imported Seafood from questionable Sources, Vegetables...IT goes on...

Few would remember or pay attention and and not to mention all the posts that read, " I injected my Pork butt and let it warm to room temp on the counter based on member recommendations, read it somewhere here, then went into my MES at 225*. After 2 hours the Power went off for thirty minutes then came back on for 2 hours then went off again for 1 hour then back on 1 hour. then I fell asleep and when I woke the clock was blinking so there must have been another power failure. When I checked the IT the Pork was at 205*F and the Bone pulled easily. All household members are in good health and I washed the meat first...Which Guideline for Time and Temperature should I follow and...Is it safe to eat? "

I spent weeks in a Sanitation and Safety class and get 2-3 Food Safety Newsletters each day to learn and keep up to date on the handling possibilities and what could go wrong, people make millions of dollars developing HACCP Programs for major food handler and still...Stuff happens!

If you wish to research and provide Time and Temperature Guidelines for Each of the Meats and Handling Variations including relevant supporting documentation...You are welcome to do so and after review, we will Post it in a permanent Article with full credit given to you. Have at it...

The task is huge and SMF won't pay me Millions or even Pennies to do it, so in an effort to keep our members safe we have a guideline that takes many potential problems into account and boils it down to the 40 to 140 in 4 Rule...JJ

Well, that's exactly what i'm getting at, while it may not be possible to make a rule for every situation, it's also unwise to promote a general rule that may be used in a way that could be very dangerous.

I'm comfortable with "40 to 140 in 4" for whole cuts, cooked at a minimum temperature of, say, 225 degrees. I'm not at all comfortable promoting "40 to 140 in 4" as a general rule.


~Martin

 

[alblancher]

I believe the first recommendation we normally make is to follow a safe recipe.  We talk about smoked meats on this forum.   The 40 to 140 rule applies to what we talk about most of the time.  One of the great things about having such a diverse, educated membership is when something doesn't quite fit the rules it gets discussed.  That's why we have the forum, we don't just say  read this Wiki and move on to the next question.

I suggest we use the basic food safety rules as a guide and when something unusual is discussed we can add the caveats and additional explanation that it deserves.   I have smoked chicken wings at low temperatures before and then raised the smoking temp to get them beyond 140 degrees in 4 hours.  Never had a problem, it may be a good topic of discussion and make for an interesting conversation.   I have made jerky with just salt, soy sauce and spices.  Great stuff!  The salt and drying goes a long way to protecting the jerky.  Now that I know better I'll probably add a bit of to cure to help insure it's safety.  I still don't understand how we smoke fish without cure, but it happens quite often and is supported by a lot of reputable literature.

Would you open half a sack of oysters and lay them in the sun for 3 1/2 hours before smoking them?  Probably not!  If that's not asking for trouble I can't imagine what is.   But few of us smoke oysters and when we do we should be more attentive to the way we handle them.

Let's not continue to question the simple rules.  All it does is add confusion and increase angst.   Lets use the simple rules and then when needed expand on them to teach the finer points.  The 4 hour rule is perfectly fine for 90% of what we do.  Sometimes chicken, seafood and wild game require additional information. 

Just a thought.  

Al

 

[diggingdogfarm]

Let's not continue to question the simple rules. All it does is add confusion and increase angst.   Lets use the simple rules and then when needed expand on them to teach the finer points.  The 4 hour rule is perfectly fine for 90% of what we do.  Sometimes chicken, seafood and wild game require additional information. 

Rules that are potentially unsafe should always be questioned.

The problem is that not everybody asks for clarification, some are rank beginners who have not one clue about food safety and when they see a general rule such as "40 to 140 in 4" they think it should apply to everything because they can't see the potential risks. Also remember that there are hundreds of people who read the forum and never join!

I think folks may want to reconsider promoting "40 to 140 in 4" as a general rule because, besides someone getting seriously hurt or worse, without something authoritative, respected and concrete to back it up, the liability of making such a statement rests on you, the forum and the forum owner. That's another reason why I think this should be taken much more seriously.


~Martin

 

[diggingdogfarm]

Sorry, I thought the OP's question had already been answered by Pineywoods, nepas and alblancher.





~Martin