40° - 140° in 4 hours discussion

[diggingdogfarm]

I just spent most of the day reading through the complete 2009 US Food Code.
I can't find anything that supports the "40 to 140 in 4" rule.



~Martin

 

[pops6927]

Moving posts on this subject to this thread.

 

[chef jimmyj]

Martin, Your Chicken Wing scenario is an example of a an act by a Foolish person and I can guarantee that If that guy Posted the recipe here as the Best way to do them, many people would take issue because it is all over the Forum that any Un-Cured meat be Smoked at Temps over 225*F. This is taken from the USDA Guidelines...

Use Two Thermometers to Smoke Food Safely
To ensure meat and poultry are smoked safely, you'll need two types of thermometers: one for the food and one for the smoker. A thermometer is needed to monitor the air temperature in the smoker or grill to be sure the heat stays between 225 and 300 °F throughout the cooking process.  http://www.fsis.usda.gov/factsheets/Smoking_Meat_and_Poultry/index.asp
 

So the 40 to 140 in 4 does not even come in to Play since a more important rule has already been broken and may have created a hazard. We can't address every possible stupid thing the uneducated may do, nor can we post a rule to cover every possible mishap, mistake or fluke occurrence that may come up. But, every time some one posts an unsafe Recipe we are on it like White on Rice...

We have to have a Starting point...40 to 140 in 4...Then we can deal with individual issues as they come up.

As far as Ground Meat goes...A 20 pound Meatloaf is probably not going to get above 140 in 4 and is beyond the Guideline but should we have a Rule for 20 lb Meatloaf?  No. In like sense a half a Dozen links of store bought 1 1/4" Johnsonville Brats will Smoke to 165*F IT in about 2 hours at 225*F so again, No issue and no separate Rule for Store Bought Sausages. 

I don't think you are trying to start trouble as long as you are civil and are open to discussion and are willing to try to see the Big Picture, We are all good... Like I said If you have some specific and common occurrence that warrants it's own rule, let us know...JJ
 

 

[pops6927]

As per Brian, I am moving this into it's rightful section, Food Safety.

 

[pops6927]

Moving thread to here

 

[chef jimmyj]

Makes sense to me...JJ

 

[diggingdogfarm]

Martin, Your Chicken Wing scenario is an example of a an act by a Foolish person and I can guarantee that If that guy Posted the recipe here as the Best way to do them, many people would take issue because it is all over the Forum that any Un-Cured meat be Smoked at Temps over 225*F. This is taken from the USDA Guidelines...

Use Two Thermometers to Smoke Food Safely

To ensure meat and poultry are smoked safely, you'll need two types of thermometers: one for the food and one for the smoker. A thermometer is needed to monitor the air temperature in the smoker or grill to be sure the heat stays between 225 and 300 °F throughout the cooking process.  http://www.fsis.usda.gov/factsheets/Smoking_Meat_and_Poultry/index.asp

 
So the 40 to 140 in 4 does not even come in to Play since a more important rule has already been broken and may have created a hazard. We can't address every possible stupid thing the uneducated may do, nor can we post a rule to cover every possible mishap, mistake or fluke occurrence that may come up. But, every time some one posts an unsafe Recipe we are on it like White on Rice...

We have to have a Starting point...40 to 140 in 4...Then we can deal with individual issues as they come up.

As far as Ground Meat goes...A 20 pound Meatloaf is probably not going to get above 140 in 4 and is beyond the Guideline but should we have a Rule for 20 lb Meatloaf?  No. In like sense a half a Dozen links of store bought 1 1/4" Johnsonville Brats will Smoke to 165*F IT in about 2 hours at 225*F so again, No issue and no separate Rule for Store Bought Sausages. 

I don't think you are trying to start trouble as long as you are civil and are open to discussion and are willing to try to see the Big Picture, We are all good... Like I said If you have some specific and common occurrence that warrants it's own rule, let us know...JJ

 

I wouldn't call the guy foolish, just uniformed, foolish is knowing the rules and ignoring them. He took advise that was incomplete from a safety standpoint and ran with it. He was a beginner, and in his mind the "40 to 140 in 4" rule applied to what he was doing.

Again, as I said before, the rule should be 40 to 140 in 4 at 225 or more to avoid someone getting seriously sick or worse.

Keeping the 2 separate is like giving someone an inflatable life raft, yet not telling them how to inflate it!

~Martin

 

[chef jimmyj]

I wouldn't call the guy foolish, just uniformed, foolish is knowing the rules and ignoring them. He took advise that was incomplete from a safety standpoint and ran with it. He was a beginner, and in his mind the "40 to 140 in 4" rule applied to what he was doing.
Again, as I said before, the rule should be 40 to 140 in 4 at 225 or more to avoid someone getting seriously sick or worse.
Keeping the 2 separate is like giving someone an inflatable life raft, yet not telling them how to inflate it!
~Martin

 And as far as your example goes I stand by Foolish because anybody that attempts to do some thing like Smoking Chicken and the ONLY info they bother to pay attention too is get it done in 4 hours is either Foolish or Stupid...Everytime you attempt a new Smoke or Build or Repair, do you look at One Post on a Forum read one Caution statement then go off and do it? I doubt it...By that logic the same guy would see Proscuitto is made with Salt and go off and buy a Hog Leg and a box of Morton's Kosher.

 In every instance that the " Rule " is stated it is in a Hot Smoke thread. So I thought it was self explanitory. Here is what I have taken directly from the Safety Sticky....

Some Guidelines are Standard on SMF...It is important for your Safety, that any Meats that have been Punctured, Probed, Injected or Ground, be cooked or smoked at a temperature, typically 225*F or greater, that gets the Internal Temperature of the meat from 40*F to 140*F in 4 Hours or less...Frequently called the 40 to 140 in 4 Rule. (This does not include meats containing Cure #1, Cure #2 and Morton's Tender Quick.)      ...And...

For Safety, we can't support the Smoking of Meat at temperatures lower than 200*F unless a Cure containing Sodium Nitrite Cure #1 or Tender Quick is used...The addition of Cure allows for Smoking anywhere between 40 and 200*F for an extended period of time...Please don't post recipes that are contrary to this...

So to end any confusion and at your behest, I added the above temperature qualifier highlighted in Red... I think that will help...JJ

 

[diggingdogfarm]

 And as far as your example goes I stand by Foolish because anybody that attempts to do some thing like Smoking Chicken and the ONLY info they bother to pay attention too is get it done in 4 hours is either Foolish or Stupid...Everytime you attempt a new Smoke or Build or Repair, do you look at One Post on a Forum read one Caution statement then go off and do it?

I certainly don't, but some people do, that's the point. How exactly is somebody with zero experience supposed to know if they have all the relevant safety info, does that come in 2 posts, or 10, or 100? If you don't have a clue about the risks how are you supposed to know what questions to ask? That's why it's important to be more thorough in cautioning.

 In every instance that the " Rule " is stated it is in a Hot Smoke thread. So I thought it was self explanitory. 

Don't take anything for granted when it comes to food safety!

 
It is important for your Safety, that any Meats that have been Punctured, Probed, Injected or Ground, be cooked or smoked at a temperature, typically 225*F or greater, that gets the Internal Temperature of the meat from 40*F to 140*F in 4 Hours or less...Frequently called the 40 to 140 in 4 Rule. (This does not include meats containing Cure #1, Cure #2 and Morton's Tender Quick.)      ...And...

For Safety, we can't support the Smoking of Meat at temperatures lower than 200*F unless a Cure containing Sodium Nitrite Cure #1 or Tender Quick is used...The addition of Cure allows for Smoking anywhere between 40 and 200*F for an extended period of time...Please don't post recipes that are contrary to this...

Bravo!
That caution in it's entirety is a much much better caution than simply "40 to 140 in 4"


~Martin

 

[chef jimmyj]

I'm glad we came to an accord...As far as those that don't bother Educating themselves before they attempt something new...In the words of Forrest Gump, "Stupid is as Stupid does."...JJ

 

[pops6927]

Thank you, gentlemen!  Every dissension that results in an improvement is a discussion of success!

 

[arnie]

BRAVO!   Very well put gentlemen.

Not only was it good to see this topic brought up to the surface again, but it was great to see it discussed in a professional manner.  

I have seen others, and have been boohooed myself on other forums for raising questions on food safety.

As was pointed out, not everyone visiting any forum is at the same level of expertise.

It is easy to forget that and become comfortable with your knowledge. When that happens we become complacent.   

When we become complacent we put each other at risk.

If we all keep food safety at the forefront we should all be able to put another safe BBQ season under out belts. 

 

[rubbin butts]

Great job everyone, I enjoyed this thread and learned from it.

That's what the forum is about.

 

[shoneyboy]

Just wanted to pay a little attention to this....

 

[thsmormonsmokes]

If liability is a concern, I could draft some incredibly obnoxious, detailed liability waiver to put below the site's masthead.  I'm sure everyone would love seeing that when they log on.

[/TIC].  Yeah, there's a reason people hate lawyers.

-Actually, as I'm thinking about it, if there isn't some sort of liability waiver buried in the user agreement (who reads those things anyway), it would be a good idea to have.  It might not be a terrible idea for one of the forum mods to look into that.  Feel free to PM me if you think this is worth looking into.  I'm only licensed in UT, so that limits what I can do, but the liability concerns that DDF has brought up are the kind of issues I deal with.

 

[diggingdogfarm]

I'm glad we came to an accord...As far as those that don't bother Educating themselves before they attempt something new...In the words of Forrest Gump, "Stupid is as Stupid does."...JJ

It's not just beginners, I see top-rated chefs being careless when it comes to food safety, and they should definitely know better.
Thomas Keller comes to mind, he would definitely benefit from a good food safety course.


~Martin

 

[chef jimmyj]

LOL...Thomas Keller needing a Food Safety Course!?!  In my world that's the equivalent of saying Jesus Christ needs Religious Education!!!

There are a lot of things that happen in Restaurants that are considered Gross, like a Chef tasting a working sauce a couple of times with the Dip of a Finger...Or dropping a plate of Fried Shrimp and running them back through the Fryer to Rinse and Sanitize them...But none of it represents a Health Hazard just unethical poor management...JJ

 

[alblancher]

I used to install communications and network equipment in a bunch of local restaurants.  From large BBQ chain restaurants to fast food outlets to local mom and pop shops.  Two hints,  never look behind the equipment and never try and walk fast on a kitchen floor.  I spent a lot of time on my backside with tools all over the floor by getting in a hurry on the greasy floors.

 

[diggingdogfarm]

LOL...Thomas Keller needing a Food Safety Course!?!  In my world that's the equivalent of saying Jesus Christ needs Religious Education!!!

There are a lot of things that happen in Restaurants that are considered Gross, like a Chef tasting a working sauce a couple of times with the Dip of a Finger...Or dropping a plate of Fried Shrimp and running them back through the Fryer to Rinse and Sanitize them...But none of it represents a Health Hazard just unethical poor management...JJ

How many issues do you see in this short video?

Thomas Keller Roasted Chicken



It can't be denied when caught on video.




~Martin

 

[diggingdogfarm]

I used to install communications and network equipment in a bunch of local restaurants.  From large BBQ chain restaurants to fast food outlets to local mom and pop shops.  Two hints,  never look behind the equipment and never try and walk fast on a kitchen floor.  I spent a lot of time on my backside with tools all over the floor by getting in a hurry on the greasy floors.

That's why the equipment in my Mom's restaurants was easily movable, so the place could be thoroughly cleaned regularly.

I don't eat out in restaurants very much because of what I've seen in some places over the years.



~Martin