40° - 140° in 4 hours discussion

[piaconis]

To muddy the waters just a bit further, the standard is completely dependant upon the way the food was handled prior to its arrival.  Nothing like adding variables to an equation.

 

[chef jimmyj]

Piaconis, The point you make is a valid one, the " 40 to 140 in 4 " is only ever mentioned in Hot smoking discussions. And it does seem rediculous for anyone to Stretch the concept to cold smoking Chicken then heat it to 165*F. But after extensive discussion, Martin did convince me that it could happen. So my posting of the rule in the Safety Forum Intro was updated to reflect that the rule applies to smoking at 225*F or greater...Thank for your input...JJ

It is important for your Safety, that any Meats that have been Punctured, Probed, Injected or Ground be cooked or smoked at a temperature, typically 225*F or greater, that gets the Internal Temperature of the meat from 40*F to 140*F in 4 Hours or less...Frequently called the 40 to 140 in 4 Rule. (This does not include meats containing Cure #1, Cure #2 and Morton's Tender Quick.)

 

[jarjarchef]

This what I found on a quick search for FDA Regulations Smoked Meat. I lot of info, again nothing mentions about cook time or smoker temp, only final temp and the use of HACCP. They do talk about curing and what is approved for use. See link below.

In our location we will use the time verse temperature for holding of  cold food on the temporary buffets, that is no more than 4 hours out of refrigeration. We are very strict on the above 140 for hot holding. That is why I am a firm believer in the 40 to 140 in <4hrs guideline.

Yes, just like in anything we can pick it apart till it reads what we want it to. The main thing we need to look at is keeping our food safe and wholesome for the ones consuming what we have put so much time and effort into.. The 40 to 140 in <4hrs helps us accomplish this. Yes it is also dependent that we handle the food correctly before we cook it.

http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/FoodCode2009/ucm188201.htm#parta6-3

 

[s2k9k]

I am confused! What about meats that you aren't going to take to 140* like a steak or a beef roast? I know I know, whole muscle that hasn't been injected, but what about when you probe with a therm to check temp, isn't that considered "injecting"? Or if you put in a remote probe to monitor temp?

I'm asking because I am smoking a sirloin tip tomorrow and will only take it to about 135* and I am concerned if I should put my remote probe in it or not, and if I don't I'm still going to have to probe it with an instant read therm at some point so I know when it is done. So it seems that I will still be injecting it and it will never get to 140*.

I see advice all over this site about beef roasts and steaks and only cooking to 120* 130* 135*....and it seems to be fine to do even when a probe was injected at the start.

I'm not trying to stir anything up, just trying to better understand this.

 

[chef jimmyj]

I am confused! What about meats that you aren't going to take to 140* like a steak or a beef roast? I know I know, whole muscle that hasn't been injected, but what about when you probe with a therm to check temp, isn't that considered "injecting"? Or if you put in a remote probe to monitor temp?

I'm asking because I am smoking a sirloin tip tomorrow and will only take it to about 135* and I am concerned if I should put my remote probe in it or not, and if I don't I'm still going to have to probe it with an instant read therm at some point so I know when it is done. So it seems that I will still be injecting it and it will never get to 140*.

I see advice all over this site about beef roasts and steaks and only cooking to 120* 130* 135*....and it seems to be fine to do even when a probe was injected at the start.

I'm not trying to stir anything up, just trying to better understand this.

 With a Beef Roast it will take a couple of hours. You already know its cold...so wait 1 hour for the heat of the Smoker to kill surface Bacteria then it don't matter how many times you stick it as long as your Therm Probe is clean... Dave, don't Freak Out! Yes there is Bacteria in the Air on even washed Hands and on the surface of Meat. But most of the time stuff we do like Brine, Rub with a Salty Rub, Smoking to 130*F or Higher and so forth covers our Backsides by killing Bacteria. Truely Goofy stuff has to happen to get Sick! 

For instance...Defrost a Chicken on the counter for 20 Hours,( it's cool Mom did it and nobody died. ) Inject with leftover Creole Butter, Start Smoking at 225*F fall asleep and there is a Power Failure that last 4 hours. Power comes back and you wake after 8 hours to find All looks ok. You think, " Man that's a long time but I read something about Stall some where, that is what must have happened." You see the breast is at 160*F, Thigh Juices still Pink but everybody Hungry and you serve it...Yes this is a silly scenario, but hey does happen.

The biggest issue that Scares me is when I see...I Injected my 10LB Butt and let it sit on the Counter a couple of hours to come to room temp because if I don't it Drops the Smoker temp and takes longer to Smoke...3-4 hours on the Counter or 3-4 extra hours in the Smoke...WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? Except time on the Counter is generating loads of Bacteria and possibly Toxins... Enjoy your Beef...JJ

 

[s2k9k]

 With a Beef Roast it will take a couple of hours. You already know its cold...so wait 1 hour for the heat of the Smoker to kill surface Bacteria then it don't matter how many times you stick it as long as your Therm Probe is clean...JJ

What do you mean "it will take a couple of hours"? To fully cook to 135*?

This bad boy is 10 pounds, I'm thinking more than a couple of hours!

So are you saying as long as it hasn't been injected once the surface temp gets to 140* it is OK to inject?

 

[chef jimmyj]

What do you mean "it will take a couple of hours"? To fully cook to 135*?

This bad boy is 10 pounds, I'm thinking more than a couple of hours!

So are you saying as long as it hasn't been injected once the surface temp gets to 140* it is OK to inject?

 I'm saying once the Surface get's hot you can probe all you want even though the Beef is still Raw inside...As far as Injection...Wash the Meat and Dry well...Apply a Salty Rub...Then Inject...Rest on Counter no more than 1 hour!...Smoke at ---*F to IT desired. You should have no problem at all...BUT...If you want more assurance Don't Inject or wait 1 hour for the Surface Bacteria to die then inject. In my opinion, I want to taste BEEF not a bunch of whatever injected inside! ( Brisket is an Exception because of cooking to 190*F)...JJ

BTW: If you are going to cook to 130*F IT most 10Lb Beef Roasts are not going to take more than 4 hours or so...

 

[s2k9k]

Thanks a Bunch JJ!!! That clears a lot of stuff up for me!

I wasn't planning on injecting anything into it I was more referring to breaking the surface as in injecting a temp probe into it.

 

[tatties n neeps]

very interesting topic ! thanks for the info 40 to 140 in 4 , was never aware of how quick you had to get your meat temp up .