Cure amount in wet 'brine'

[thirdeye]

Hey folks, been years since I've been here. But now I have a question... it's something that seems wrong.
I read things about curing salts vs lbs of meat, for dry that makes sense, but not for wet. Here is why
It seems like the concentration is the key, not the lbs of meat. Like lets say for example, you add 1 tsp for X amount of meat in a gallon of water. If you had 10 gallons for water, that 1 tsp would be way to diluted, even if it was that same amount of meat. It seems like it should be "cure per X amount of liquid". Like a person could make up 5 gallons of liquid, with cure etc. then just 'use' as much as needed to fully cover/marinate what ever amount of meat. Whether it be 2 ounces of meat of 5 lbs of meat.
does that make sense?

In a curing brine the amount (weight) of cure #1 is based on the weight of the meat plus the weight of the water. When using a dry cure, the amount of Cure #1 is based on meat weight. The Cure #1 percentage is constant in either situation and that is 0.25% or 1.13 grams of cure #1 per pound (of meat + water, or meat only when dry curing).

Tender Quick is not interchangeable with cure #1, however earlier this year I was asked about a Dizzy Pig ham cure recipe that used Tender Quick in a curing brine. That thread is HERE. daveomak came to the rescue with help on the calculations needed.

Sugar is used to knock down the harshness of salt used in curing. It is not mandatory so you could use low percentages That said, different sugars can have different effects. Light brown sugar, dark brown sugar, white sugar, maple sugar, Turbinado sugar or Splenda are available.

Pop's Brine is what I call a universal brine, and there are some advantages of using a curing brine that is on the low end of the acceptable range of cure #1 in a gallon of water. Namely, skipping the meat + water calculation. Pop's Brine has been proven to be successful as well as safe which is a major consideration in home curing and canning.

Your question about dry curing jerky is a good one. I buy bulk jerky cure from Hi Mountain and add my own signature seasonings. Their cure is similar to Tender Quick in volume making it easier to distribute on the meat. I weigh out the amount, add my seasonings, mix then divide the amount in half. One half is sprinkled on side 1, the other half is used on side 2. The meat is stacked, wrapped in plastic and cured for 24 hours, then smoked and/or dehydrated.

 

[rons]

In a curing brine the amount (weight) of cure #1 is based on the weight of the meat plus the weight of the water. When using a dry cure, the amount of Cure #1 is based on meat weight. The Cure #1 percentage is constant in either situation and that is 0.25% or 1.13 grams of cure #1 per pound (of meat + water, or meat only when dry curing).

Tender Quick is not interchangeable with cure #1, however earlier this year I was asked about a Dizzy Pig ham cure recipe that used Tender Quick in a curing brine. That thread is HERE. daveomak came to the rescue with help on the calculations needed.

Sugar is used to knock down the harshness of salt used in curing. It is not mandatory so you could use low percentages That said, different sugars can have different effects. Light brown sugar, dark brown sugar, white sugar, maple sugar, Turbinado sugar or Splenda are available.

Pop's Brine is what I call a universal brine, and there are some advantages of using a curing brine that is on the low end of the acceptable range of cure #1 in a gallon of water. Namely, skipping the meat + water calculation. Pop's Brine has been proven to be successful as well as safe which is a major consideration in home curing and canning.

Your question about dry curing bacon is a good one. I buy bulk jerky cure from Hi Mountain and add my own signature seasonings. Their cure is similar to Tender Quick in volume making it easier to distribute on the meat. I weigh out the amount, add my seasonings, mix then divide the amount in half. One half is sprinkled on side 1, the other half is used on side 2. The meat is stacked, wrapped in plastic and cured for 24 hours, then smoked and/or dehydrated.
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Thanks great information :)

Not sure though where the bacon came in? I know I didn't mention bacon? But good info. to know.

To me it seems weird about the meat weight in a liquid cure.
Like, lets say you made a gallon of juice in a big bucket. If you dropped one small piece of meat in there vs 10 pieces, it 'seems' like the concentration of the liquid would still work the same. Like how the ocean is huge and has some PPM of salt, so if you put something in the ocean, or in a cup of ocean water, it would still be the same PPM per volume. Does that make sense?

 

[daveomak]

Thanks great information :)

To me it seems weird about the meat weight in a liquid cure.
Like, lets say you made a gallon of juice in a big bucket. If you dropped one small piece of meat in there vs 10 pieces, it 'seems' like the concentration of the liquid would still work the same. Like how the ocean is huge and has some PPM of salt, so if you put something in the ocean, or in a cup of ocean water, it would still be the same PPM per volume. Does that make sense?

Take this as constructive criticism....
If you want to learn, listen to the folks here....
If you think you have the solution, why are you asking for help ???

 

[rons]

Take this as constructive criticism....
If you want to learn, listen to the folks here....
If you think you have the solution, why are you asking for help ???

no. your taking me wrong, just talking about how weird it seems. I am listening and will do it the right way as I did state earlier.
I'm just stating my mind on how that seems 'weird' and am curious, scientifically, 'why' it's like that.

 

[thirdeye]

Thanks great information :)

Not sure though where the bacon came in? I know I didn't mention bacon? But good info. to know.

To me it seems weird about the meat weight in a liquid cure.
Like, lets say you made a gallon of juice in a big bucket. If you dropped one small piece of meat in there vs 10 pieces, it 'seems' like the concentration of the liquid would still work the same. Like how the ocean is huge and has some PPM of salt, so if you put something in the ocean, or in a cup of ocean water, it would still be the same PPM per volume. Does that make sense?

Oops, I typed 'bacon' instead of 'jerky'. I corrected my post above. For me, having some curing salts in my jerky mixture is really for color, texture and that 'cured' flavor.... rather than for preservation or because I'm cold smoking the meat longer than 4 hours. My standard drill is a warm/hot smoke for an hour or two, then moving to a dehydrator.

The meat and water weight in a curing brine is the basis for the amount (weight) of cure #1 you need. Salt and nitrite diffusion in different sized pieces is based on their thickness, which affects minimum curing times. At this point in the process it's all about weight in the bucket, thickness and time. PPM is a factor, but the USDA is also concerned about the PPM nitrite at the end of the process.

This kind of 'equilibrium' curing brine is balanced and gives you leeway on time if you overshoot your timetable.

 

[rons]

Oops, I typed 'bacon' instead of 'jerky'. I corrected my post above. For me, having some curing salts in my jerky mixture is really for color, texture and that 'cured' flavor.... rather than for preservation or because I'm cold smoking the meat longer than 4 hours. My standard drill is a warm/hot smoke for an hour or two, then moving to a dehydrator.

OH ok, that makes sense (on the bacon).

Yeah , good jerky usually doesn't last long enough 'to need' cured lol.
I usually do that too, smoke for a few hours, then dehydrator.
Our local super market makes jerky in the butcher dept. I was talking to the guy there, asking him about it. He said they smoke it the whole time at 180 degrees and it's super good. I never go that hot, but might have to try that.

 

[thirdeye]

OH ok, that makes sense (on the bacon).

Yeah , good jerky usually doesn't last long enough 'to need' cured lol.
I usually do that too, smoke for a few hours, then dehydrator.
Our local super market makes jerky in the butcher dept. I was talking to the guy there, asking him about it. He said they smoke it the whole time at 180 degrees and it's super good. I never go that hot, but might have to try that.

I use a Big Chief box smoker, it tops out in the 160°'s on a warm day, less on cool days. I set my dehydrator at 150° and watch the surface fats and sample along the way. I might end up at 160°, but that might my max temp.

 

[rons]

I use a Big Chief box smoker, it tops out in the 160°'s on a warm day, less on cool days. I set my dehydrator at 150° and watch the surface fats and sample along the way. I might end up at 160°, but that might my max temp.

ok cool

 

[SecondHandSmoker]

Oops, I typed 'bacon' instead of 'jerky'. I corrected my post above. For me, having some curing salts in my jerky mixture is really for color, texture and that 'cured' flavor.... rather than for preservation or because I'm cold smoking the meat longer than 4 hours. My standard drill is a warm/hot smoke for an hour or two, then moving to a dehydrator.

The meat and water weight in a curing brine is the basis for the amount (weight) of cure #1 you need. Salt and nitrite diffusion in different sized pieces is based on their thickness, which affects minimum curing times. At this point in the process it's all about weight in the bucket, thickness and time. PPM is a factor, but the USDA is also concerned about the PPM nitrite at the end of the process.

This kind of 'equilibrium' curing brine is balanced and gives you leeway on time if you overshoot your timetable.

Nicely explained!

 

[PolishDeli]

rons
I think i understand your confusion about the ppm thing seeming weird. Does this analogy help:
Imagin a cup of water mixed with red food coloring, and a cotton ball dipped in blue food coloring.
When you put the cotton ball into the water, they both turn purple.
They each give up some color to equilibrate with the other.
Imagining extreme scenarios - like a blue cotton ball in a red bathtub or swimming pool. You can see that very diffent shades of purple can be made, depending on the volume of red water, even though the starting ppm of red is the same in all cases.

 

[rons]

rons
I think i understand your confusion about the ppm thing seeming weird. Does this analogy help:
Imagin a cup of water mixed with red food coloring, and a cotton ball dipped in blue food coloring.
When you put the cotton ball into the water, they both turn purple.
They each give up some color to equilibrate with the other.
Imagining extreme scenarios - like a blue cotton ball in a red bathtub or swimming pool. You can see that very diffent shades of purple can be made, depending on the volume of red water, even though the starting ppm of red is the same in all cases.

oh ok yeah I see now, that makes sense, i didn't think of the meat putting out into the water, was just thinking of the meat 'taking in'. Now that cleared it up, thanks!

 

[thirdeye]

oh ok yeah I see now, that makes sense, i didn't think of the meat putting out into the water, was just thinking of the meat 'taking in'. Now that cleared it up, thanks!

'Taking in' (or ingoing nitrite) happens a couple of ways in a curing brine. Natural migration of the cure and the salts into meat is one way. Injecting curing brine at 10% of the meat weight into the meat is another.

The color example that P PolishDeli used is a good visual. Returning to the weight of nitrite with and without water..... we know if dry curing a 2.2 pound (1kg) hunk of meat, the amount of cure #1 needed is 2.5 grams. That amount is mixed in with salt and usually sugar, then applied directly to the meat.

When wet curing the same 2.2 pound hunk of meat, we still need to have 2.5 grams of cure #1 get into the meat, and we can't forget about some additional salt and sugar for flavor. BUT there is now water in the bucket. So the amount (weight) of cure #1 is going to have to be increased, as well as adding additional salt and sugar in order to compensate for the additional weight of the water.

 

[rons]

'Taking in' (or ingoing nitrite) happens a couple of ways in a curing brine. Natural migration of the cure and the salts into meat is one way. Injecting curing brine at 10% of the meat weight into the meat is another.

The color example that P PolishDeli used is a good visual. Returning to the weight of nitrite with and without water..... we know if dry curing a 2.2 pound (1kg) hunk of meat, the amount of cure #1 needed is 2.5 grams. That amount is mixed in with salt and usually sugar, then applied directly to the meat.

When wet curing the same 2.2 pound hunk of meat, we still need to have 2.5 grams of cure #1 get into the meat, and we can't forget about some additional salt and sugar for flavor. BUT there is now water in the bucket. So the amount (weight) of cure #1 is going to have to be increased, as well as adding additional salt and sugar in order to compensate for the additional weight of the water.

ok cool very interesting, thanks for taking the time, I'm one of those 'have to know why' kinda people. I annoy myself with that too lol thanks!

 

[thirdeye]

ok cool very interesting, thanks for taking the time, I'm one of those 'have to know why' kinda people. I annoy myself with that too lol thanks!

You should be inquisitive about certain processes you do at home, because it's the little things that are easy to overlook, and some of these have the potential to lead to big problems later on.

I was taught basic curing technique (and home canning) before the internet and I added reference books to my library instead of links to webpages . Early internet usergroups did have discussions using reliable and proven methods, but at one point..... the internet was flooded with information, and not all of it was completely accurate. YouTube for example is a wonderful platform but it's so easy to believe what vloggers present without double checking it.

Because there was so much internet carelessness surrounding the use of Cure #1 by self proclaimed 'experts', and even though I used it at home.... I generally advocated using Morton Tender Quick because it was designed specifically for 'home curing' from a safety point of view. Later, certain respected individuals and forums like SMF developed a reputation for solid advice and promoted tested and proven methods. So now, I'm okay with discussing and publishing curing formulations using Cure #1.

 

[rons]

You should be inquisitive about certain processes you do at home, because it's the little things that are easy to overlook, and some of these have the potential to lead to big problems later on.

I was taught basic curing technique (and home canning) before the internet and I added reference books to my library instead of links to webpages . Early internet usergroups did have discussions using reliable and proven methods, but at one point..... the internet was flooded with information, and not all of it was completely accurate. YouTube for example is a wonderful platform but it's so easy to believe what vloggers present without double checking it.

Because there was so much internet carelessness surrounding the use of Cure #1 by self proclaimed 'experts', and even though I used it at home.... I generally advocated using Morton Tender Quick because it was designed specifically for 'home curing' from a safety point of view. Later, certain respected individuals and forums like SMF developed a reputation for solid advice and promoted tested and proven methods. So now, I'm okay with discussing and publishing curing formulations using Cure #1.

Good thoughts
So Cure #1 , since it's so 'potent' is more a risky thing to use or maybe, it's more important to be precise with it?
I ditched my Morton TQ and have some Cure #1 on the way, so I'll make sure to be exact with it. thanks for the caution on that

 

[thirdeye]

Good thoughts
So Cure #1 , since it's so 'potent' is more a risky thing to use or maybe, it's more important to be precise with it?
I ditched my Morton TQ and have some Cure #1 on the way, so I'll make sure to be exact with it. thanks for the caution on that

When Morton developed Tender Quick, they took most of the guesswork out of precise measuring. Whole muscle curing (like bacon) uses 1 tablespoon per pound of meat, and if the consumer was a little shy, or a tick heavy everything worked out. Cure #1 on the other hand is measured in fractions of teaspoons or weighed out in grams per pound of meat.... the more accurate the better. Tender Quick is white in color. Cure #1 is pink in color so it would never be mistaken for any other product your pantry.

 

[SmokinEdge]

When Morton developed Tender Quick, they took most of the guesswork out of precise measuring. Whole muscle curing (like bacon) uses 1 tablespoon per pound of meat, and if the consumer was a little shy, or a tick heavy everything worked out. Cure #1 on the other hand is measured in fractions of teaspoons or weighed out in grams per pound of meat.... the more accurate the better. Tender Quick is white in color. Cure #1 is pink in color so it would never be mistaken for any other product your pantry.

Tender Quick is right with the European cures as far as nitrites. It works just fine, just salty for my taste.