davemo
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I just got the new sausagemaker catalog and it has a new product that is supposed to take the place of the nitrate cure for sausage .Its called celery juice powder any info on it????????
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[h2]davemo,[/h2]
I don't have much time, but I found this quick (below).
I know Sausagemaker is a reputable place. One thing I noticed was it seems you're consumption of nitrites would be the same with this as with any other cure, so I don't see what the benefit would be.
Bearcarver
[h2] [/h2][h2] [/h2][h2]Can cured meats be produced without sodium nitrite?[/h2]
Cured meats by their definition must include sodium nitrite. Sodium nitrite is the ingredient that gives a product like ham its color and taste. Without sodium nitrite, these products’ shelf life would be shortened substantially.
Some uncured products available today use vegetable-based ingredients like celery juice, which may contain nitrate naturally, to deliver a color and flavor similar to traditionally cured meats. When the sodium nitrate in celery, or other sodium nitrate-containing vegetables, is exposed to certain types of bacteria in the product, the nitrate is converted to sodium nitrite, which results in product characteristics similar to traditionally cured meat products. The amount of sodium nitrite consumed from these types of products versus traditionally cured meat products is virtually the same.
Source:
http://www.meatsafety.org/ht/d/sp/i/45243/pid/45243
I don't have much time, but I found this quick (below).
I know Sausagemaker is a reputable place. One thing I noticed was it seems you're consumption of nitrites would be the same with this as with any other cure, so I don't see what the benefit would be.
Bearcarver
[h2] [/h2][h2] [/h2][h2]Can cured meats be produced without sodium nitrite?[/h2]
Cured meats by their definition must include sodium nitrite. Sodium nitrite is the ingredient that gives a product like ham its color and taste. Without sodium nitrite, these products’ shelf life would be shortened substantially.
Some uncured products available today use vegetable-based ingredients like celery juice, which may contain nitrate naturally, to deliver a color and flavor similar to traditionally cured meats. When the sodium nitrate in celery, or other sodium nitrate-containing vegetables, is exposed to certain types of bacteria in the product, the nitrate is converted to sodium nitrite, which results in product characteristics similar to traditionally cured meat products. The amount of sodium nitrite consumed from these types of products versus traditionally cured meat products is virtually the same.
Source:
http://www.meatsafety.org/ht/d/sp/i/45243/pid/45243
davemo
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so from the article you posted there really isnt any advantage to the celery juice powder that i can see??? bummer oh well i didnt really mind using the prague powder anyhow
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That was just what I found in a quick search. There may be more to it, if anyone wants to look deeper. I'm happy with my TQ too.
There are people on here who are deathly afraid of using cure. Maybe they will look deeper and find good reasons to use celery juice powder???
Thanks for starting this thread. It could save one of their lives.
Bearcarver
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Actually, if done correctly, you can use zero nitrites and achieve the same results. The properties of burning wood create nitrates/nitrites:
",,,,, Many smoked meats develop a smoke ring, a bright pink color just under the surface. Some people think the pink color means the meat is raw, but nothing could be further from the truth. There is a picture of a pork rib with a smoke ring at the top of this page.
Nitrogen dioxide (NO2) is among the compounds formed in the high heat combustion of wood, charcoal, and even propane. As these compounds land on the surface of meat, especially cool moist meat from the fridge, some, including nitrogen dioxide, are moved deeper into the meat as cells lower in the smoke compounds pull them in with a diffusion and absorption process. The cells are simply seeking equilibrium. The process is the same as when someone lights a cigar in a room. All the smoke starts out near the cigar, but eventually it spreads throughout the room as it achieves equilibrium. After a while it penetrates clothes, furniture, and even food. Because it is water soluble, cigar smoke will get into wet things first, like your wife's eyes. Before long you and your cigar will be seeking equilibrium in the garage.
The smoke ring in meat is caused by four things:
1) low temperature cooking,
2) combustion of the wood at high temperatures to form nitrogen dioxide,
3) nitrogen dioxide, and
4) moisture on the surface of the meat to help move the water soluble nitrogen dioxide into the meat.
When these conditions are met, nitrogen dioxide in wood smoke reacts with the pigment myoglobin in meat to form nitrites and nitrates. These are the same compounds added to hot dogs and other cured meats to preserve them and they also give them their pink color.
When smoke roasting, the moist meat absorbs smoke. Less smoke is absorbed as the cooking continues because the surface of the meat begins to seal and becomes saturated with smoke. For this reason putting a pan of water in a smoker helps create a smoke ring. In fact some smokers, called water smokers, have water pans built in.
Most of the smoke flavoring occurs in the first hour or two of cooking so adding wood to the fire late in the cook doesn't create as much flavor. It also allows moisture to escape. It's better to just leave the door closed..." from Meat Science
",,,,, Many smoked meats develop a smoke ring, a bright pink color just under the surface. Some people think the pink color means the meat is raw, but nothing could be further from the truth. There is a picture of a pork rib with a smoke ring at the top of this page.
Nitrogen dioxide (NO2) is among the compounds formed in the high heat combustion of wood, charcoal, and even propane. As these compounds land on the surface of meat, especially cool moist meat from the fridge, some, including nitrogen dioxide, are moved deeper into the meat as cells lower in the smoke compounds pull them in with a diffusion and absorption process. The cells are simply seeking equilibrium. The process is the same as when someone lights a cigar in a room. All the smoke starts out near the cigar, but eventually it spreads throughout the room as it achieves equilibrium. After a while it penetrates clothes, furniture, and even food. Because it is water soluble, cigar smoke will get into wet things first, like your wife's eyes. Before long you and your cigar will be seeking equilibrium in the garage.
The smoke ring in meat is caused by four things:
1) low temperature cooking,
2) combustion of the wood at high temperatures to form nitrogen dioxide,
3) nitrogen dioxide, and
4) moisture on the surface of the meat to help move the water soluble nitrogen dioxide into the meat.
When these conditions are met, nitrogen dioxide in wood smoke reacts with the pigment myoglobin in meat to form nitrites and nitrates. These are the same compounds added to hot dogs and other cured meats to preserve them and they also give them their pink color.
When smoke roasting, the moist meat absorbs smoke. Less smoke is absorbed as the cooking continues because the surface of the meat begins to seal and becomes saturated with smoke. For this reason putting a pan of water in a smoker helps create a smoke ring. In fact some smokers, called water smokers, have water pans built in.
Most of the smoke flavoring occurs in the first hour or two of cooking so adding wood to the fire late in the cook doesn't create as much flavor. It also allows moisture to escape. It's better to just leave the door closed..." from Meat Science
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Man this is why I love this place - soooooooo much great info from very well informed folks thanks Pops and Bear
bs gourmet jerk
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Does liquid smoke have the same effect?I am also looking a using the beet powder and the cellery seed powder for my jerky but can't find how much of it to use per pound of meat.Any one have an idea.Thanks
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bs, morning..... You need to have it analyzed to find out the nitrite/nitrate concentration....too much or too little could make you sick when the meat isn't cured properly... For health reasons, you are better off using analyzed/ packaged cure from a reputable distributor.... for jerky, use cure #1.... Dave
pinksalt
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Where do you have it analized? Will they seperate nitrate/ nitrate concentrations? How much #1 for jeerky!
rocor98
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I have used it .. Hot dogs ... Shelf life is very poor compared with cure #1 ( Prague powder ) .. Small amounts used and it is not cheap .. I am not near the package , it is shipped in an air tight bag , is is an extremely fine powder , ( made a mental note to use a mask next time, or open bag very very very slow) and it must be used after opening in either 4 weeks or 4 months (google actual time )
Go to Sausagemaker.com and expand the page to read the label and then a web search will also assist you in seeking usage guides.
Someone posted in the forms on an older thread it added celery flavor .. I did not experience that using sausagemaker's recipe , but then we all have different levels of taste.
In Canada it does not have to be reported as a nitrate on food labels ( observations as opposed to knowledge of actual food laws )... Some processed meats are actually labeled nitrate free , but you see them report celery extracts in the contents area. I must admit a slight celery flavor in the brand I have tasted. Being a stranger to Old Bay , and having only tasted it on product in the last year of my 59 year existance, I may be over sensitive to celery taste added in this way. The company producing the product I tried had a major contamination event a few years back , so they may be adding a lot of protection in the mix .. It was sliced sandwich ham.( labeled as organic ) Some of you will say, why trust that product , but this is Canada , small population, one company just like General Foods , owns all the major brands here, so you are always exposed to their level of client protection, regardless of what national or in most cases regional brand you purchase.
Some people can have reactions to celery ( depending on medications taken and natural body chemistry ) so it has to be listed .. If not by law, but for legal problems ( like peanuts)
Just observations ..... Not all facts above are carved in stone .. Google and company web sites are your friend .. :sausage:
Ross
Go to Sausagemaker.com and expand the page to read the label and then a web search will also assist you in seeking usage guides.
Someone posted in the forms on an older thread it added celery flavor .. I did not experience that using sausagemaker's recipe , but then we all have different levels of taste.
In Canada it does not have to be reported as a nitrate on food labels ( observations as opposed to knowledge of actual food laws )... Some processed meats are actually labeled nitrate free , but you see them report celery extracts in the contents area. I must admit a slight celery flavor in the brand I have tasted. Being a stranger to Old Bay , and having only tasted it on product in the last year of my 59 year existance, I may be over sensitive to celery taste added in this way. The company producing the product I tried had a major contamination event a few years back , so they may be adding a lot of protection in the mix .. It was sliced sandwich ham.( labeled as organic ) Some of you will say, why trust that product , but this is Canada , small population, one company just like General Foods , owns all the major brands here, so you are always exposed to their level of client protection, regardless of what national or in most cases regional brand you purchase.
Some people can have reactions to celery ( depending on medications taken and natural body chemistry ) so it has to be listed .. If not by law, but for legal problems ( like peanuts)
Just observations ..... Not all facts above are carved in stone .. Google and company web sites are your friend .. :sausage:
Ross
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Pinksalt, morning.... I have no idea where to get it analysed..... I assumed bs was going to use some type of celery or beet powder that was not specifically packaged for curing meat..... The stuff you purchase specifically for curing, is analysed and has recommended amounts for curing written on the label.....
My opinion about vegetable cure.... It is a gimmick for the folks who have been programmed to believe nitrites are bad for you.... vegetable cure has nitrites in it and it is performing the same function as sodium nitrite or potassium nitrite.... It may be some other compound but it is still a nitrite.... Article by M. Ruhlman
As far as jerky goes... If I were making jerky, I would personally do a liquid brine/spice/cure combination of 90-120 Ppm, just like brining bacon.... then add CBP to the surface..... If 120 Ppm is OK for bacon, it would be good enough for me in jerky.... And I would still cook the jerky to 145..... The cure would allow me to take longer than the 4 hour rule to get up to temp without the fear of growing any pathogens..... I am not recommending this for others to do.... You asked what I would do.... Hope that answers your question... Dave
diggingdogfarm
Master of the Pit
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Here's the link to celery juice powder at SausageMaker......
http://www.sausagemaker.com/11080celeryjuicepowder.aspx
*The USDA currently does not recognize naturally occurring nitrates as effective curing agents in meats, so if using Celery Juice Powder for products being sold to the public, the end-products must be labeled "Uncured".
~Martin
http://www.sausagemaker.com/11080celeryjuicepowder.aspx
*The USDA currently does not recognize naturally occurring nitrates as effective curing agents in meats, so if using Celery Juice Powder for products being sold to the public, the end-products must be labeled "Uncured".
~Martin
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Martin, morning..... So if the USDA does not recognize it as effective.... are the pathogens killed along with trich ???? It would seem the FSIS would have to label the meat (bacon) as unsafe or something.. Darned if I know how to take that statement.... Help me and others out here....
And if the vegetable "cures" are nitrates, the USDA does not allow nitrates in bacon......
Seems they have set up a double standard or something.... I think I am getting confused.... but that is easy for me to do.... LOL
Dave
diggingdogfarm
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Consider it just a "seasoning".
There's no reliable curing effect (lethality) as far as botulinum or trichinella cysts go.
There's nothing unsafe about using it, as long as reliable safety precautions are taken.
~Martin
There's no reliable curing effect (lethality) as far as botulinum or trichinella cysts go.
There's nothing unsafe about using it, as long as reliable safety precautions are taken.
~Martin
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