Paging all sausage gurus!!

[sholmes925]

Not sure if these questions have been posted before, but I have spend the afternoon scouring past threads to reread the same things over and over and not find the answers I seek. So if I missed the question and answers, I apologize and will gladly take a link to the appropriate thread. 

I use turkey or chicken only for my meat, as I don't eat red meat or pork. I have an analog electric Masterbuilt Smoker. I have been using ground meat from the store. With that being the understanding, I will start the questions and see what I am doing wrong......I have made sausage the last 3 weekends in a row. First attempt was with two different flavors spread out amongst 5lb batches. First 5lb batch was amazing! It was firm and sausage like. The second batch was crumbly. I thought this may have been because I added too much water. Last week I sought out some help and was given some good advice. Last weeks batch were 3 separate 3lb batches.  I added no water to the mixes and sang meatloaf's two out of three ain't bad, as only one batch was crumbly. Advice given after last weeks batches was to watch temp and add more fat, and to not use a vinegar based hot sauce, as this can destroy the fat during the cooking process. 

Now we have this weeks batches. Again there were three- 3lb batches. However, this time I tried a different meat then before. Before I was using the ground turkey in the trays. This time I used the tube ground meat. So this variable might be part of the issue this time. Not to worry, this won't happen again. I noticed it might be an issue when I fried it up during the pretest phase, before stuffing my casings. All three batches were crumbly and not firm. I am using collagen casings. The turkey, both types, is 85/15. Last week it was suggested I take the fat content up. I have already called the local butcher shop to have them grind some meat and get the fat content up to 80/20. 

So questions:

-Should I use a higher ratio of meat to fat if I am having the butcher make me some? 70/30?

-I was doing a gradual temp raise. I always start around 100-115 for about an hour or so, to make sure the casings are dry before starting to add smoke. Then bump to 130 for about an hour, 150 for about an hour, and then finish about 170. Is this necessary to graduate the temp, or can I just go to 170 after the casing is dry? 

-I have been cooking on all three racks in my smoker. My lower sausage finishes first. I usually then move the racks to the next lower position to finish cooking. Is this ok or necessary? 

-I don't start using the meat thermometer until after the 3rd hour. When I do this juices squirt everywhere. Should I be poking the casings to allow the juices out or leave them in for the cook? I was poking the casing to allow the juices out so it didn't stretch the casing out. In retrospect, I did not do this during the first cook where the sausage came out perfect. Maybe a clue for me? Maybe wishful thinking on my part that it could be that easy.

-How long should it take to hot smoke 9lbs of sausage sticks? Is it even possible to know this answer without a poop ton of other variables? Maybe a better question would be, is 9 hours too long to smoke the sticks?

-I have seen the sticks stall for quite a bit of time (maybe 15 minutes or more). I was blaming the thermometer, but I think it is the meat. I have actually seen the temps go down a few degrees in the meat. This usually is after kicking up the heat on the sticks. I got impatient today and tried to finish them off by bumping the smoker up to 200. 

Thanks for all the help!

Steve

 

[wild west]

Hey Steve.
I've never made bird sausage before although my lady has been asking. The meat to fat ratio I don't think is the problem. I make alot of very lean sausage because I like to use it like a hunter sausage. No second cook just use as a hand sausage or slice and eat with cheese bla bla bla. Sounds to me your problem is #1 lean sausage needs to be mixed longer than a fatier sausage or you need to use a binder to get it to stick together(nfdmp as an exaple). You should not be able to shake it off your hand if it's mixed properly. #2 your temp sound high. Your sausage shouldn't be 'squinting anywhere" unless it's getting some outside stimuli. Seriously at 3 hrs your sausage should only be at about 120 maybe 130. 200*is a no no especially with bird. Your method is OK but flawed. DO NOT POKE YOUR SAUSAGE TO LET ALL THAT MOISTURE AND FLAVOUE OUT(Sorry For yelling). I don't use racks for sausage make so(me kind of rail or hooks cooks more evenly. Are you useing a reliable remote therm for cabinet temp as well as meat temp (so very important) or relying on the mes therms. Mix mix mix keep your method of bumping up Temps. Patience on getting it finished to the the target temp. You can always finish in a water bath if you are pressed for time or are just done. I almost always finish in water bath. I hope this helps and doesn't sound like a lecture

 

[wild west]

Sorry forgot to list my credentials. No sausage guru....just a dumba $$

 

[mickey jay]

What kind of bird sausage are you making?  Sounds like maybe it was some bird snack sticks?  Or maybe just kielbasa-sized bird sausages.. or are you actually hot smoking?  I think it would help knowing exactly what you're after here.

Crumbly can mean a few things.. fat content too low, or temps too high, which it sounds like you have both.  If you're poking a casing and juices are squirting out, your temps are too high.  Those juices are your fat/moisture dripping out of the meat.  It's called fat-out, and you get it at temps starting around 180.  And honestly, even if you didn't poke the casing and let it out upon cooling it would just pool into an unsavory ick at the bottom of your sausages.  It shouldn't be there to begin with.  It sounds like your method is solid (step up from 120-170 in stages), so I'm thinking your therm is off.  If you're using the therm on the door of your smoker, you'll want to get a digital therm with a probe that you can set right next to the meat in the middle of your smoker so you know where the temp is for real.  Those door therms can be way off.

I've found using the rack is fine for me, and actually significantly easier than dealing with hooks or a rod to hang from.  You're right, the bottom will finish first; you can rotate during the smoke or just be aware of it.  For cold smokes I actually prefer 3 hours of cold-ish smoke, then finish in a water bath.  It's quicker and more controllable (albeit more dishes to wash).

Good luck!  Let's see some pics!

 

[dirtsailor2003]

Crumbly poultry sausage is either lack of fat, or too high if a smoker temp, or too long of a cook.

Skin on Thighs are best to use and grind your own.

You will also want to use a binder like NFDM (non fat dry milk). It will help the meat retain moisture. There are other binders you can use but this is the easiest to find off the shelf binder.

One more note poultry works best for fresh sausages like brats. You can do sticks or summer sausage but the longer cook times required can dry them out.

 

[DanMcG]

Can I ask how much salt was used in your recipes? You need salt to develop a good bind.

 

[sholmes925]

 
What kind of bird sausage are you making?  Sounds like maybe it was some bird snack sticks?  Or maybe just kielbasa-sized bird sausages.. or are you actually hot smoking?  I think it would help knowing exactly what you're after here.

I am using ground turkey for my meat. I am making snack sticks and I am hot smoking them.

 

[sholmes925]

Thank you all for all the good information. I am using a Thermoworks Smoke for my thermometer and ambient probe. It sounds like the consensus is high temp and fat ratio as the culprit. I think my issue was trying to rush the process, thinking they should be done in 4-5 hours. Now that I won't be worried about that, I will hold the temps lower then 180. Hopefully this helps with the taste as well, as I won't be losing all my juices. I always forget to post some pics, but will gladly post some shortly. Thanks again for everyone's input!!

 

[sholmes925]

IMG_20170220_104309.jpg

• sholmes925
• Feb 21, 2017

 

[mickey jay]

As long as you're using Cure #1, you don't need to worry about getting them done in 4 hours.

Hard to tell from your pic where your ambient probe is, but I would put it right underneath your lowest shelf, clipped in the middle of the rack so that it's right under the meat closest to the heating element.  This will give you an accurate view of what your hottest temp is in your smoker.

Btw, they look super tasty!  

 

[BGKYSmoker]

 
Thank you all for all the good information. I am using a Thermoworks Smoke for my thermometer and ambient probe. It sounds like the consensus is high temp and fat ratio as the culprit. I think my issue was trying to rush the process, thinking they should be done in 4-5 hours. Now that I won't be worried about that, I will hold the temps lower then 180. Hopefully this helps with the taste as well, as I won't be losing all my juices. I always forget to post some pics, but will gladly post some shortly. Thanks again for everyone's input!!

If I may

Try to hold your temp between 165-170

Sticka re done when they are done, dont rush em. Myself i dont use a probe as you know only the ip reads the temp, fat can cavitate at the tip and give false readings. As for cure #1 ALWAYS USE IT for temps below 180 No matter what time it takes.

If you have to poke the casings that means you have a fat-out and temps are way to high. When i did chicken sticks i used skin for the fat content and if i remember the 10lbs took about 9 hrs. Start low at 130 then bump gradually to 165 try not to exceed 170 smoker temp.

I see in your pic that your pretty full, Put some space between those sausages for better air and smoke flow. Where the sticks touch they will have on off color and (May) not get done.

GL

Your results may vary.

 

[dward51]

What binder are you using (or are you using a binder?).   Post the recipe ingredients and we can probably give some insight there.  Also *NEVER* let the meat temp in a stick go over 155* degrees or you will start to have fat out, which will give a crumbly texture.  Another thing, I see you have been using as much as 30% fat in your meat mix.  I would not go anywhere that high on fat content for sticks.  For sausage (say 32mm casings or larger), yes, but not sticks.  I tend to stay in the 10% range on sticks, and I like phosphate binders such as AmesPhos.

And before people start talking about poultry needs to be cooked to 165* to be safe to eat, you can safely cook at a lower temp for a longer time and achieve the same safety results.  That is how sous vide works.  But you need temp control especially in sticks to prevent fat out.

 

[sholmes925]

NEPAS:

Try to hold your temp between 165-170

Sticka re done when they are done, dont rush em. Myself i dont use a probe as you know only the ip reads the temp, fat can cavitate at the tip and give false readings. As for cure #1 ALWAYS USE IT for temps below 180 No matter what time it takes.

I am using cure #1 for my sticks, but thanks for the reminder on this point. I will attempt these again this weekend. I will try and hold the temps between 165 and 170. How do you measure the IT of your sticks without piercing the casing? 

 

[BGKYSmoker]

 
I am using cure #1 for my sticks, but thanks for the reminder on this point. I will attempt these again this weekend. I will try and hold the temps between 165 and 170. How do you measure the IT of your sticks without piercing the casing? 

Been doing this long time. I can squeeze em and tell when they are between 148-153. If i have any doubts (i mean to much libation 

) i use my thermapen. 

 

[sholmes925]

 
What binder are you using (or are you using a binder?).   Post the recipe ingredients and we can probably give some insight there.  Also *NEVER* let the meat temp in a stick go over 155* degrees or you will start to have fat out, which will give a crumbly texture.  Another thing, I see you have been using as much as 30% fat in your meat mix.  I would not go anywhere that high on fat content for sticks.  For sausage (say 32mm casings or larger), yes, but not sticks.  I tend to stay in the 10% range on sticks, and I like phosphate binders such as AmesPhos.

And before people start talking about poultry needs to be cooked to 165* to be safe to eat, you can safely cook at a lower temp for a longer time and achieve the same safety results.  That is how sous vide works.  But you need temp control especially in sticks to prevent fat out.

dward51,

I have used a few different recipes. I used Hi Mountain Natural seasoning, This past week I used LEM jerky seasoning. On both of these, I used the cure which was provided with the packages.I have not added any additional binders to my sticks. My casings have been 19 mm and 21 mm, with 21 mm being the one I used the most.

I am pretty stoked by all this feedback, as I now know I was the problem here and not the meat or the smoker. I was jacking the temps up to get an IT of 165. After reading your post, I found myself researching sous vide and temp controls of poultry. I appreciate the insight. This completely changes the way I think about meat temps. So how do you tell IT of the stick?  Do you do the feel test as well?

 

[sholmes925]

 
Been doing this long time. I can squeeze em and tell when they are between 148-153. If i have any doubts (i mean to much libation 

) i use my thermapen. 

LOL so many jokes here!! I appreciate the input. I will start doing the feel test as I stick them with the thermometer so can train my fingers to know my meats temps. :) This libation thing......Now I am down for that! 

 

[BGKYSmoker]

If you need to use a binder try some C-Bind. Carrot fiber binder. I used it a few times and works good, kinda expensive for 1.5oz but you dont need much for small batches. I like it better than SPC and A PHose.

I will fetch my bag to show you.

 

[dward51]

 
I am pretty stoked by all this feedback, as I now know I was the problem here and not the meat or the smoker. I was jacking the temps up to get an IT of 165. After reading your post, I found myself researching sous vide and temp controls of poultry. I appreciate the insight. This completely changes the way I think about meat temps. So how do you tell IT of the stick?  Do you do the feel test as well?

I had a set of sticks fat out early on in my sausage making adventure.  I did the same thing, jacked the temp pretty high to get them over a stall at 145*.  I did it once, and after than learned it was better to go longer at a lower temp and creep up on that 152-154* mark than to try to crank it up to rush it.   Some people probe one stick and leave it in the entire smoke, or just a quick poke with a thermopen does it for me.  The meat is done when the meat wants to be done.....

Now for summer sausage that I finish in a sous vide bath after vacuum packing, I don't probe for temp.  I let the sous vide run as time is your friend in sous vide land.  The beauty of sous vide is you will not overshoot a programmed temp.  So lately I've been getting my summer sausage up to 145'ish range to set the meat firm and putting each chub in a vacuum bag and then into a 154* sous vide bath for 3 hours.  It's overkill to run 3 hours, but it will not fat out.  Works great.   I have not tried sous vide on sticks though and doubt I will.