Now I am totally confused.

Discussion in 'Beef' started by callmaker60, Dec 8, 2015.

  1. After reading, watching youtube video's on making beef snack sticks, I am totally confused on internal temp. One video says 155 IT. The IT on the LEM package says 165 IT, I just watched a youtube video, and they cook them to 185 IT. I guess I need to know what is the lowest and safe IT?
     
  2. bearcarver

    bearcarver Smoking Guru OTBS Member

    Somebody else should confirm this, but I think this Forum recommends taking Sticks to 160° IT to be safe.

    Bear
     
  3. daveomak

    daveomak Smoking Guru OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    Below is a pasteurization table... It describes the temperature and time required to make meats safe to eat.....


    Temperature Time Temperature Time
    °F (°C) (Minutes) °F (°C) (Seconds)

    130 (54.4) 112 min... 146 (63.3) 169 sec
    131 (55.0) 89 min.... 147 (63.9) 134 sec
    132 (55.6) 71 min.... 148 (64.4) 107 sec
    133 (56.1) 56 min.... 149 (65.0) 85 sec
    134 (56.7) 45 min.... 150 (65.6) 67 sec
    135 (57.2) 36 min.... 151 (66.1) 54 sec
    136 (57.8) 28 min.... 152 (66.7) 43 sec
    137 (58.4) 23 min.... 153 (67.2) 34 sec
    138 (58.9) 18 min.... 154 (67.8) 27 sec
    139 (59.5) 15 min.... 155 (68.3) 22 sec
    140 (60.0) 12 min.... 156 (68.9) 17 sec
    141 (60.6) 9 min...... 157 (69.4) 14 sec
    142 (61.1) 8 min...... 158 (70.0) 0 sec
    143 (61.7) 6 min.......
    144 (62.2) 5 min.......
    145 (62.8) 4 min.......

    Table C.1: Pasteurization times for beef, corned beef, lamb, pork and cured pork (FDA, 2009, 3-401.11.B.2).


    Another source.... with explanations..

    http://www.fao.org/docrep/010/ai407e/AI407E08.htm


    FWIW, I usually double the time recommended at lower temperatures.... JUST IN CASE my therm is off or other sections of meat may have not reached the temperature all at the same time.....

    example... 135 deg. for 36 minutes..... I extend to at least 72 minutes at that temp....
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2015
    c farmer likes this.
  4. driedstick

    driedstick Smoking Guru OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    I take all my snack sticks and summer sausage to IT of 152* Min. 

    DS
     
     
  5. dirtsailor2003

    dirtsailor2003 Smoking Guru OTBS Member

    I'm usually right in there too, 152 if I'm paying attention, 156 if I'm not!
     
  6. Finished them a few hours ago, took to mid 150's into cold water, then fridge, turned out very good.  So from now on, i'll shoot for mid 150's.

    Thanks for the replies.
     
  7. bearcarver

    bearcarver Smoking Guru OTBS Member

    Guys---I once said 152° IT was safe & I got yelled at !!!

    They said---on SMF it is 160°.

    Bear
     
  8. crankybuzzard

    crankybuzzard Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    Same here, unless I fall asleep.

    I won't go there today, it still hurts! :biggrin:
     
  9. daveomak

    daveomak Smoking Guru OTBS Member SMF Premier Member


    Hey Bear..... Just tell 'em your following an approved pasteurization table from the FDA.....

    Table C.1: Pasteurization times for beef, corned beef, lamb, pork and cured pork (FDA, 2009, 3-401.11.B.2).
     
  10. boykjo

    boykjo Sausage maker Staff Member Moderator Group Lead OTBS Member

    I'm with bear on this.... USDA says all ground meat needs to be brought to 160 degrees. The USDA does not recognize what temp ground meat should be brought too with cure..... We will follow  USDA guidelines for ground meat

    If you can find something different ..please let us know
     
  11. mr t 59874

    mr t 59874 Master of the Pit SMF Premier Member

    The pasteurization table is priceless. 

    T
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2015
  12. boykjo

    boykjo Sausage maker Staff Member Moderator Group Lead OTBS Member

  13. bearcarver

    bearcarver Smoking Guru OTBS Member

  14. daveomak

    daveomak Smoking Guru OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    Joe, morning.... Found a NON - Intact table... Dave

    FSIS Compliance Guideline: Controlling Listeria monocytogenes in Post-lethality Exposed Ready-to-Eat Meat and Poultry Products
    January 2014

    FSIS Guidance on Safe Cooking of Non-Intact Meat Chops, Roasts, and Steaks April 2009
    Temp °F/ Temp °C /Time for 5.0 log Reduction
    Unit Time
    130- 54.4- 86 min.
    131- 55.0- 69 min.
    132 -55.6 -55 min.
    133 -56.1- 44 min.
    134 -56.7 -35 min.
    135 -57.2- 28 min.
    136 -57.8 -22 min.
    137 -58.4 -18 min.
    138 -58.9 -14 min.
    139 -59.5 -11 min.
    140- 60.0 -9 min.
    141 -60.6 -7 min.
    142 -61.1 -6 min.
    143 -61.7- 5 min.
    144 -62.2- 4 min.
    145 -62.8 -3 min.
    146- 63.3 -130 sec.
    147- 63.9 103 sec.
    148 -64.4 -82 sec.
    149- 65.0 -65 sec.
    150- 65.6 -52 sec.
    151- 66.1 -41 sec.
    152- 66.7- 33 sec.
    153- 67.2 -26 sec.
    154- 67.8- 21 sec.
    155- 68.3 -17 sec.
    156 -68.9 -14 sec.
    157 -69.4 -11 sec.
    158 -70.0- 0 sec.
    159 -70.6- 0 sec.
    160- 71.1 -0 sec.
    The required lethalities are achieved instantly when the internal temperature of a cooked meat product reaches 158 °F or above. Humidity must be considered when using this Time/Temperature table.
    This Time/Temperature table is based on Thermal Death Curve for Salmonella in Beef Emulsions in tubes (Derived from Goodfellow & Brown1, 1978) Regulatory Curve obtained from Jerry Carosella, Deputy Director, Microbiology Division, Science and Technology. All times that were a fraction of a minute or second was rounded up to the next whole number (e.g., 16.2 seconds for 155 °F was round up to 17 seconds).
    ________________________ 1. Goodfellow, S. J. and W. L. Brown. 1978. Fate of Salmonella Inoculated into Beef for Cooking. Journal of Food Protection. 41:598-605.false
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
  15. wade

    wade Master of the Pit OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    As has been pointed out above the safety of the resulting sticks is not just about temperature - but is also about the length of time that the food it held at that temperature. 

    Below I have plotted the temperatures against the times required against each temperature as this can often make it easier to understand what is actually happening.


    On the graph you can see that any time/temperature combination above the line is actually safe. As the temperature rises the length of time required for the meat to remain at that temperature reduces exponentially. Often the time/temperature combination used in any given situation is determined by the way the food is being prepared. If you are giving advice to someone and you do not know precisely how the person is preparing the food, it is safer to recommend they take it to the higher temperatures (say 160 F) as the meat only has to reach that for a few seconds to be safe. If you only take the meat to say 152 F, then it is still perfectly safe providing that it has remained at that temperature for at least 35 seconds.

    As Dave says, if anyone shouts at you when you are quoting the FDA approved temperatures then they are not fully aware of what is going on regarding safety, and they need to be gently nudged in the direction of the pasteurisation tables that are relevant to the meat being prepared.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
    daveomak likes this.
  16. daveomak

    daveomak Smoking Guru OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    Wade.... Do a graph for the ground meat "time/temperature" information.... By the way, I'm copying your graphs..... points.....
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
  17. bmudd14474

    bmudd14474 Smoking Guru Staff Member Administrator Group Lead OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    I go to 160 then strait into a ice bath/shower to instantly stop the temp from rising anymore. Then hand and let bloom.
     
  18. bearcarver

    bearcarver Smoking Guru OTBS Member

    You left out sending some to Pennsylvania for the quality control & taste testing service!!

    Just Sayin',

    Bear
     
  19. mr t 59874

    mr t 59874 Master of the Pit SMF Premier Member

    The USDA’s primary responsibility  is the oversight and safety of certain food products that are commercially produced and offered for sale and consumption by the general public. Following extensive scientific research, guidelines and standards are prepared and published for the producers to refer and adhere to. The most basic of these publications, by purposeful intent, err on the very conservative side and are specifically directed, to what’s commonly referred to as “The Lowest Common Denominator”. In any given commercial food production environment, you’re going to have varying degrees of culinary education, training, skills, and experience. Those at the upper end of the scale would probably understand and acknowledge the FSIS log10 lethality reduction tables referred to by Dave Omak and Wade, while those at the lower end (The LCDs) would probably look at them cross eyed.

    Therefore, while the USDA can publish general guidelines that state that log10 lethality can be achieved using various temperatures at various points in time as shown on the tables, they don’t. Instead, with the understanding that the required lethality's are achieved instantly when the internal temperature of a cooked meat product reaches 158°F or above, the general published guidelines that are most commonly referred to in the interest of simplicity and presumed safety are similar to the one that Boykjo posted which, in this case, states “To prevent food borne illness, uncooked sausages that contain ground beef, pork, lamb or veal should be cooked to 160 °F”. With the trickle-down effect from commercial food production to production for home and personal consumption that then becomes the standard used by cookbook authors, other recipe writers, and other venues such as food related forums like SMF. While safety should always be the primary concern, there’s always a potential liability factor involved.

    Tom
     
  20. wade

    wade Master of the Pit OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    Yes Tom I totally agree. The tables are great to understand but as you say it all comes down to personal confidence and the levels of understanding with what you are doing. When you approach the recognised safe cooking temperatures the times required at these temperatures actually vary relatively little - e.g. at 160 F it is instant but at 152 F it only needs to be there for 30 seconds, which is a relatively short time when smoking meats.

    Whilst I always take my meat to (and usually above) the recognised temperatures, people sometimes do not understand that there is nothing magical about reaching these precise temperatures. Let us consider a situation where your coals have just started to run out and you have struggled at the end to get your meat IT up to 160 F, but it has actually been at 150 F for the past 30 minutes (the minimum time required at that temperature is actually 52 seconds). It will still actually be safe to eat, providing safe food handling practices have been used before it was cooked. It is unfortunate when you sometimes see peoples advice on here in similar circumstances that the meat is unsafe and should be binned !!

    In the FSIS guidelines that Boykjo referred us to ...
    • "To prevent foodborne illness, uncooked sausages that contain ground beef, pork, lamb or veal should  be cooked to 160 °F. Uncooked sausages that contain ground turkey and chicken should  be cooked to 165 °F"
    ... the word "should" denotes a guideline whereas "shall" would be the word that would be used to denote a requirement - or possibly a phrase like "is required to be". The use of the word "should" in this context does not invalidate the use of the the tables when assessing the safety of food temperatures, in fact to the contrary - it suggests that the 160 -165 F are simply the (strongly) recommended temperatures.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2015

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