New member and needs help with busted electric smoker. PID???

[jreamsnyder]

Hey guys,

New member and my very first post.

About a year ago I was gifted my first smoker, a Smoke Hollow Electric Smoker, Model 3016DEW, with a 1500W heating element. It worked great for about a year and I was having a blast and turning out great BBQ... until it broke. I noticed during one cook that it would get up to temp, and then slowly fall, and then fluctuate all over the place. I called Smoke Hollow CS, to find out that (of course) it was just barely out of warranty, but the suspect parts were either the heating element or the control box, and both were sent out to me. I installed both new units and have the same issue.

Now, I'm quite mechanically handy and even slightly electrically handy. When the replacement parts weren't working, I busted out the multimeter and started testing. Coming from the power cord is the normal hot, neutral, and ground. The hot and neutral go to the circuit board, and the ground goes to ground, so I tested them all. The ground is good. The heating element is good. The hot wire shows a healthy 120V. The problem is the hot lead coming from the circuit board to the heating element. When the controller indicates "heating" (i.e. the hot lead from the circuit board to the heating element should be "hot"), I occasionally get a nice 120V, and sometimes I get zero. Doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason to it. I've tried both controllers and the issues is the same. I've been exhaustive in testing this and can only conclude that something in the actual circuit board is messed up.

Anyway, in lieu of trying to obtain and pay for a new circuit board and install that, I've been hearing about these PID controllers. Essentially, you scrap the exiting controller and circuitry, you hard wire the heating element to your power (so that if it's plugged it, the element is "on"), and have a PID controller in the middle with a thermocouple that senses the temp and turns on/off the heating element accordingly. Is my thinking on this correct??? And if so, could someone point me in the right direction as far as hardware to move forward. I'm merely looking for a temp controller, not a timer or meat probe or anything like that, just a temp controller. Any suggestions would be GREATLY APPRECIATED as I have a bunch of ribs and pork butts in my freezer that are laughing at me right now.

OR... am I wasting time and money and should just simply get a propane or pellet unit? I love the simplicity of the electric in that I only have to set a temp and walk away, but if this is going to be a constant issue, I'm wondering if I should go more "primitive".

Thanks for reading my long post!

 

[tbrtt1]

Welcome to the best BBQ forum on the inter-webs.

This very humble opinion is mine and in now way reflects the views of this station or broadcast network, but for what you would pay for a nice PID you could get a new smoker. Lots of folks on this forum post some seriously good Q on the Masterbuilt Electric Smokers, AKA MES. Then there are the Smokin-It and other Cook Shack clones which are a bit pricier in the electric smoker category. There are many others too.

Of course, if you are electrically handy you can easily make a PID yourself, as some have done. Do some research on this forum as there is more good information on this site than you can shake a stick at. Use the search function. It is your best friend.

 

[dr k]

If your smoker has a safety snap disc over heat switch it may be the culprit, failing and opening the circuit ttoo soon at a low temp to the element after initial heat up. If you can, bypass it and run a test and see if it stays up to temp.

 

[SonnyE]

OK, all is far from lost here.
All electric smokers can be converted easily to PID controlled.
I use two methods. My Bypass mode with my MES 30. Or my abandoned method with a MES 40 Gen I, I was given.
My Bypass Mode is fully explained here.
The MES 40 isn't worth fussing with to me, so I merely took the black wire from the cord, and the output of the element relay (aka: Black Box) on the circuit board, and spliced the two wires together. Then plug the smokers cord into my Inkbird PID box and away it goes.
My reason for using an external control is for cold smoking below 100°.
But now it allows full function of the MES 40. Which I wanted for cold smoking and hanging larger pieces of meat in.

I would caution you to not mess with the Neutral wiring. The Neutral (white wire) is the over temperature device to control the element from overheating the smoker, and the possibility of it causing a fire.

The Inkbird linked above is a °C type controller. If you desire a unit that does both C, or F, the Itc-106 would be the item.
You will have to assemble this PID. I got a NEMA 4 Junction box from my local Lowe's Store, and built my enclosure, with an outlet on the back for the smokers to plug into.

The Inkbird PID I used has 0° C to 400°C capability with the provided thermocouple. Which is way wide of the smokers we use requirements.

You can do it. I can help if you need it. Just PM. ;)

 

[SecondHandSmoker]

On your 3016DEW, where is the cabinet temp sensor located?

 

[daveomak]

Maybe the male prongs on the cord lose contact... I've seen that happen....
Try spreading them... sometimes they look like solid brass... NOT... they are usually all split...

 

[jreamsnyder]

On your 3016DEW, where is the cabinet temp sensor located?

It is located on top, it protrudes from the bottom of the control box into the cabinet.

 

[SecondHandSmoker]

It is located on top, it protrudes from the bottom of the control box into the cabinet.

Thank you. Okay, we can eliminate that since they sent you a new controller.
I was curious since on my Smoke-Tronix, the thermocouple is located in the upper left hand corner and is not "built in" to the controller.
Sounds like you have isolated the issue down to the circuit board.
If you haven't already done so, then maybe another call to customer service is needed.

 

[river100]

I'm with SonnyE, changing to a PID is very easy especially since you have some wiring skills.

I'd say the hardest part is building the box. It's a pain to cut the hole for the PID haha.
I think the high prices ppl mention are the plug and play pre built PID add ons.
If you want to give it a try with little expense you can get a cheap 110vac PID, an SCR w/heatsink, and a box for the controller pretty cheap on Amazon or Ebay.
Although it does raise the price, some companies sell "PID ready" boxes with the holes alreay cut out. I used one from Auberins for a PID project.
All you need from the smoker is the element, power cord and over temp switch if it has one.
SCRs are rated by Amps with the recommended heat sink. For that reason and the fact that I don't trust the ratings on cheap Chinese electronics I always use a higher amp rating with a heat sink. Another thing that has been mentioned quite a few times is use temp rated spade connectors to the element with temp rated wire. I bought mine at a local appliance parts place. Add a main 110vac power fuse to the in coming power and use ring terminals on the non spade connections if you can. Rate the fuse to the power cord wire size and use the same size or larger wire for all of the high current connections.
If you go with a PID make sure your thermocouple is reading air temp, not the smoker walls. Your smoker is not insulated so this especially applies to it. You would also get better results by using "Auto-tune" twice, once to get it to temp, and a second time to auto-tune when the smoker is at your normal cooking temp. Auto tune is a program written by the manufacturer. They don't all tune the same way so some trial and error may follow.
PS, stick with F readings for your PID, gives you a little finer control.

 

[jreamsnyder]

I'm with SonnyE, changing to a PID is very easy especially since you have some wiring skills.

I'd say the hardest part is building the box. It's a pain to cut the hole for the PID haha.
I think the high prices ppl mention are the plug and play pre built PID add ons.
If you want to give it a try with little expense you can get a cheap 110vac PID, an SCR w/heatsink, and a box for the controller pretty cheap on Amazon or Ebay.
Although it does raise the price, some companies sell "PID ready" boxes with the holes alreay cut out. I used one from Auberins for a PID project.
All you need from the smoker is the element, power cord and over temp switch if it has one.
SCRs are rated by Amps with the recommended heat sink. For that reason and the fact that I don't trust the ratings on cheap Chinese electronics I always use a higher amp rating with a heat sink. Another thing that has been mentioned quite a few times is use temp rated spade connectors to the element with temp rated wire. I bought mine at a local appliance parts place. Add a main 110vac power fuse to the in coming power and use ring terminals on the non spade connections if you can. Rate the fuse to the power cord wire size and use the same size or larger wire for all of the high current connections.
If you go with a PID make sure your thermocouple is reading air temp, not the smoker walls. Your smoker is not insulated so this especially applies to it. You would also get better results by using "Auto-tune" twice, once to get it to temp, and a second time to auto-tune when the smoker is at your normal cooking temp. Auto tune is a program written by the manufacturer. They don't all tune the same way so some trial and error may follow.
PS, stick with F readings for your PID, gives you a little finer control.

Guys thanks so much for the replies! So I’ve got some further questions. Put plainly, what should I buy? I have no problem wiring up and constructing a unit vs a pre-built one.

If I’m correct, I need:

A PID with temp probe (would prefer it reads on in degrees F)

A solid state relay with heat sink

A box to house the elements

All the necessary wires / connectors to hook everything up

The original cabinet, heating element, and power cord.

Am I missing anything? I’m a little clueless on what PID and relay / heatsink to order. Again, nothing fancy, just a temp controller. No timer or meat probe or anything like that. 95% of the time I fired up the smoker it was for pork ribs or pork butts. I’m confident I can wire up and assemble the unit. Is it realistic to get away with this for the $50 range?

Thanks again for all the help!

 

[daveomak]

Check out Holly2015 chamber build...
https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/curing-chamber-diy-how-to-w-pictures.281390/

 

[jreamsnyder]

So after poking around, I found the Inkbird ITC-106. I prefer this to the ITC-100, simply because it can read out in degrees F.

Looks like you get the controller, a 40A SSR, a K sensor thermocouple, bracket and manual. Am I on the right track? Also, there are a few variation. Do I want the RH, which has a relay output, or the VH, which has an SSR output?

Once parts are in hand, I construct a box, wire everything up, and go on to calibrating, right?

Any guidance in product selection is appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[jreamsnyder]

Forgot to mention it also comes with a heat sink for the relay

 

[SonnyE]

You are on the right track, as long as you order the right package.
Because ITC-106 has many variants. So you want to be sure of what you order.
My recommendation would be specifically this:

 

[jreamsnyder]

You are on the right track, as long as you order the right package.
Because ITC-106 has many variants. So you want to be sure of what you order.
My recommendation would be specifically this:

Thanks for the reply: I don’t think you’re recommendation pasted in correctly

 

[SonnyE]

You are on the right track if you get the right package....
There are several ways to go wrong...

I would recommend this one:
Inkbird PID ITC-106VH Digital PID Temperature Controller + K SENSOR + 40a SSR US

Because I've seen several packages. The Solid State Relay allows the controller to ramp up the output of the SSR, which controls the element. It tapers off as it approaches your set point. And tapers on as the temperature is dropping.
That is quite different than a mechanical relay which is all on, or all off, and causes overruns, which gives wide temperature swings. The simplistic OEM control for the MES series is a mechanical relay.

The K type sensor is rated for 0 to 400 degrees C (32 to 752 degrees F). Which is far wide of the MES requirements.

No changes to the programming are needed. The controller works fine right out of the box. Assemble and go.

 

[SonnyE]

Thanks for the reply: I don’t think you’re recommendation pasted in correctly

Your right it didn't. My computer needs rebooted after a day of ABC Ya, and Grandchildren programmers. ARGH!

 

[jreamsnyder]

Hello,

I got the Inkbird ITC-106 and goodies in yesterday.

I could use some assistance on how to wire it up.

The existing power cord has a hot, neutral, and ground. Do the hot and neutral go to the PID 110 input and the ground go to chassis? The output of the PID goes to the input of the SSR, and then do I just hook up the output of the SSR to the leads of the heating element? Some of this makes sense to me but some doesn’t. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

I’m also assuming I just bypass all the factory circuitry, right?

Also forgot to mention, the model of smoker is Smoke Hollow 3016DEW. 1500 watt element.

Thanks!

 

[hb99]

I researched smokers for about 6 months before I opted on my WSM.

The main reason why I didn't go for an electric was that (I read) that many of the elements only last about 2 years.

Now, I have to admit that you guys are echelons above my electrical experience and knowledge, but if it can't be fixed you can can always convert it into a cold smoke box.

 

[jreamsnyder]

OR should I add a female and male plug socket to the box for power in and power out? So power out would go to the element (I’d just use my existing power cord) and power in would just be an extension cord from a wall outlet.