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Inject whole muscle meats, then onto the curing chamber?

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indaswamp

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What has been absent is anybody with personal experience, no "I tried it and I ended up with a slimey putrid mess that 8 years later the neighbors still talk about the smell". :D
Nobody here has tried it because we know it is too risky. You don't know why it's risky and from this thread looks like you don't care....and that is the scary part.
 

Casebrew

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No, I am not backing up your idea. How you arrived at that conclusion is beyond me.


Whole muscles are not fermented. The flavors come from the lipolysis and protolysis, which is the breakdown of fats and proteins via a number of mechanisms within the meat to create new flavor compounds. That takes a lot of time, not an injection.
You did state the science behind what I want to try. THAT backs up my idea, nothing there to cause me consternation.

Likewise, I see no reason that injecting brine w/ flavors will prevent proto & lipo-lysis. It happens in salami too.

And no, I am not expecting Proscuitto Parma either. It WILL be different. It's called Innovation, like those Italians did, Christoper Columbus? Leonardo Da Vince? Marconi? Chef Boyardee? :emoji_wink:
 

indaswamp

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First sentence...
Dry cured hams are not injected with a curing solution or immersed in it. They may be smoked or not. Today, dry cured hams may be marketed as items that need preparation on the part of the consumer to make them safe to eat. As with all meat products, it is important to read the label of hams to determine the proper preparation needed. These uncooked hams are safe stored at room temperature because they contain so little water that bacteria can not grow. The way dry hams are made today is not much different from the process that was performed in the past. The difference lies mainly in climate control.


Go read this section on Dry Cured Hams written by Stanley and Adam Marianski:
https://www.meatsandsausages.com/hams-other-meats/dry
 

indaswamp

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You did state the science behind what I want to try. THAT backs up my idea, nothing there to cause me consternation.

Likewise, I see no reason that injecting brine w/ flavors will prevent proto & lipo-lysis. It happens in salami too.

And no, I am not expecting Proscuitto Parma either. It WILL be different. It's called Innovation, like those Italians did, Christoper Columbus? Leonardo Da Vince? Marconi? Chef Boyardee? :emoji_wink:
You did not post this thread as an inexperienced salumist looking for advice on how to do it properly. You posted this thread looking for validation for your experiment. Have you even considered why it is not being done that way?

No one here will cheer you on. If you do not want to dry cure whole muscles the right way, my prediction is that this thread gets locked. SMF adheres to PROVEN and SAFE USDA approved methods and we encourage new members to do the same.

What you want to do is dangerous, that is why it is not done that way today.
 

Lorenzoid

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What has been absent is anybody with personal experience, no "I tried it and I ended up with a slimey putrid mess that 8 years later the neighbors still talk about the smell". :D
I wouldn't be so sure every pathogen makes "slime" or smells putrid. It could look and taste as you might expect and yet sicken you or worse.
 

indaswamp

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If you want to get seasonings "inside" a large muscle, the BEST way to do so would be to copy the way pancetta is made....
Filet the cut of meat out into a flat 1-1 1/2" thick slab, Dry cure the meat, then season with dried spiced then roll tight and truss. Case the meat, then tie and hang to dry cure.
 

chef jimmyj

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Innovation creates new ideas and items. But not very often. The reason you cant find ANY info to back up your's? No ones gotten a good result or isn't around to say, " That No Work! " I highly doubt, in a couple of millenia, someone didn't try to Inject whole muscle to save a few weeks drying time to get to market sooner with a good result...JJ
 

Casebrew

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The following Recipe is for entertainment pruposes only! It is potentially Hazardous and is Not Supported by SMF STAFF or members...JJ
I removed the recipe as JJ said it could very well be hazardous and violates Food Safety rules so we will not be allowing it to be posted on SMF

Okay, I jumped in head first with both feet.

Steep together overnight.
Filter, inject, wrap in plastic to diffuse brine.

I lack collagen wrap. I will either slit some middles and wrap like Ace wrapping my knee, or sew up a cloth bag. Or both? cloth to keep the casing tight?
 
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Casebrew

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I decided to sew up a sack of beef middles. Cut 3 18" pieces lengthwise, sew together for width, end up with a sheet 18x18. Roll it around the meat and sew the last seam snugly. It seamed a bit short to tie both ends so I sewed the bottom end too, to the shape of the meat. Poked it all over with the same upholstery needle. Pork loin Salumi .jpg

Perhaps those of you who are convinced I am killing myself, think "un-ground salami"? Look up Skilandis? Big fat ball of salami in a pig's bladder. Perhaps 5 kilos? My brining certainly spread the chemicals as well as mixing it all in the ground meat.
 

indaswamp

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Skilandis is a ground meat product, a salami. It is not unground.

I'll also note that some of the moderators are trained and certified in food safety instruction.
 

Casebrew

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Skilandis is a ground meat product, a salami. It is not unground.

I'll also note that some of the moderators are trained and certified in food safety instruction.
Duh. So instead of mixing the chemicals into ground meat, I injected them, just like curing a ham. Same-o, same-o.

"Training" usually consistes of "This is the way WE do it." Oh, I am "trained in food safety" too. 7 years at McD's. :emoji_grin:
 

indaswamp

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No, it's not same-o same-o.... that is what you do not understand, and simply don't care.

just like curing a ham
An injected cured ham WILL BE COOKED, not dry cured! Yes, this matters, but you don't care.

I looked over your recipe before it got pulled, so in the interest of protecting anyone else following this thread, I will explain WHY your process is dangerous, and should NOT be done. Though I don't expect to reach you for the 4th time around.
The amount of salt you used was way too low for a DRY CURED whole muscle at 1.8%. This is calculated by adding the weight of the meat AND the liquid you used in your brine. At 1.8%, with added moisture, your meat will likely sour before it dries because of this low salt along with the added moisture will prolong drying. Using the correct amount of salt: 1. Slows the growth of bad bacteria. 2. pulls out moisture, thus speeding drying, 3. lowers Aw (water activity) by binding free water in the meat. This concentrates the salt in the meat as more water is removed, thus increasing the effect on slowing bad pathogens.

You went the opposite way with your process.

You did not use enough salt so bad bacteria will grow FASTER.
You ADDED water which will allow bad bacteria to flourish LONGER.
And you injected which not only introduced your kraut liquid, but also bad bacteria from the environment. Whole intact muscles lose moisture much much slower than salami that has been ground. A salami (ground meat) of the same diameter as a Culatello will finish in half the time.

I say odds of failure are extremely high.

All dry cured meats must contain a MINIMUM 2.75% salt according to the Italians, and 3% according to the USDA; with the exception of fast fermented salami.
 
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chef jimmyj

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Training" usually consistes of "This is the way WE do it." Oh, I am "trained in food safety" too. 7 years at McD's. :emoji_grin:
My training included graduating #1 in my class at Culinary School. 5 years managing fine dining operations. And 6 years as a Culinary Instructor, and Certified ServSafe Food Safety Instructor.

If you wish to proceed with this experiment, that is your choice.
However, the combined expertise of myself and others have determined the recipe is unsafe. If you want to post your result, we will review it at that time. Until then, further arguing or questioning our Education or Experience, will result in termination of this thread. So let's keep this fun...JJ
 

Casebrew

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I don't understand what you guys see wrong with my rapidly getting the same chemicals into the meat. It's 8 hours since I bagged it in sewn middles, it is changing color already. Just like salami. Fermentation is starting more rapidly than a dry rub would do. Plus my 2% chemicals are staying inside- no rub, wrap in plastic, wait 12 days, then rinse off any if the chemicals that remain on the outside. (that is the recipe for dry aged pork loin, )

I think there are many people in the world who can read the books, pass the test, live by the rules, and never grasp the basic concepts. Not the best doctors.
 

Casebrew

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All dry cured meats must contain a MINIMUM 2.75% salt according to the Italians, and 3% according to the USDA; with the exception of fast fermented salami.
Lessee, 4% in your brine, soak for days, then throw away the brine that still has half the salt in it, leaves how much in the meat?

8 hours after bagging in sewn together middles the color is darkening. Is that a fast enough ferment for you?
 
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indaswamp

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Lessee, 4% in your brine, soak for days, then throw away the brine that still has half the salt in it, leaves how much in the meat?
Your recipe said 36g salt, 4# meat, 180ml liquid injection.....that's 1.8% salt...and it is unsafe. If you placed the meat IN a brine along with injecting, you did not state this in your post.

8 hours after bagging in sewn together middles the color is darkening. Is that a fast enough ferment for you?
That is curing, not fermenting. You added no sugar so not much fermentation will occur.
 
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indaswamp

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I don't understand what you guys see wrong with my rapidly getting the same chemicals into the meat. It's 8 hours since I bagged it in sewn middles, it is changing color already. Just like salami. Fermentation is starting more rapidly than a dry rub would do. Plus my 2% chemicals are staying inside- no rub, wrap in plastic, wait 12 days, then rinse off any if the chemicals that remain on the outside. (that is the recipe for dry aged pork loin, )

I think there are many people in the world who can read the books, pass the test, live by the rules, and never grasp the basic concepts. Not the best doctors.
You are conflating a whole lot of terms in this post.
Adding salt, cure and spices is CURING the meat.

Adding a starter culture with a sugar source is Fermentation. And no, even the fastest culture on the planet won't complete fermentation in 8 hours under refrigeration.
 
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