Do You Really Need Pink Salt If You Do Not Cold Smoke Your Bacon???

[dls1]

I use http://www.butcher-packer.com/.

Go to Curing Products on the left menu. Look for DQ Curing Salt. $2.50 for 8 oz., or $3.50 for 16 oz.

Shipping is always fast.

 

[sound1]

A little bit goes a long way..and it's an inexpensive insurance if you are playing withe the 40-140 danger zone.

 

[gretscher]

I believe you are right about leaving out stuff because I'm a member of the Pizza Making Forum and I started a thread about a pizza joint I saw on the DDD and the reverse engineers on the PMF figured out that they think the chef left out one or two things to keep things secret.  I think that might go for the bacon episode too.  Then again gotta check out the end result to see if the end result was pink or more brown. 

Yep.. everyone has covered this.  When I make bacon I always save a half of a belly and leave out the pink salt.  I like "pork belly".  We cut it in 1 inch cubes.  Rub down with brown sugar and bake in oven.  Serve it over rice and it is really good.  But, like everyone says, if there is no pink salt then it is just pork belly.

I have also found that the chefs on DDD don't always tell the whole recipe.  They tend to leave out important aspects sometimes. 

 

[gretscher]

I was not very knowledgable about making bacon before I joined this forum so I thought any bacon I bought in the grocery was really bacon but I am really curious about the "bacon" I purchase from time to time at Albertson's. 

Here is the thing and you could help me figure this out - 

The "bacon" actually isn't reddish but more gray color than anything and it doesn't taste like bacon that I'd make at home with the cure added to it.  Mine comes out reddish or pinkish but the one from Albertson's that is in the meat case does not look like that color. Now I'm wondering if I'm just buying salted pork belly because it taste more like that than actual bacon.  

With that said why would they sell something like that?  If they just salt it rather than add pink salt then they are not smoking it cold or hot because it doesn't look hot smoked or smell or taste smoked.  They figure people who buy it won't get sick because they won't cold smoke it because who buy meat at grocery stores just cook it up in the frying pan or oven, therefore they won't get sick from it and they don't know better so they think it's bacon. 

What do you think?

EDIT - After posting this I did a web search and some have said that the Albertson's brand from the meat counter is actually smoked.  It does not taste smoked to me and it doesn't look pink or red like cured bacon but maybe it is but they don't smoke it enough or they don't smoke at all but they still cure it but maybe the bacon just turns out not looking very reddish.  I really don't know. 

 

[raptor700]

Yep.. everyone has covered this.  When I make bacon I always save a half of a belly and leave out the pink salt.  I like "pork belly".  We cut it in 1 inch cubes.  Rub down with brown sugar and bake in oven.  Serve it over rice and it is really good.  But, like everyone says, if there is no pink salt then it is just pork belly.

I have also found that the chefs on DDD don't always tell the whole recipe.  They tend to leave out important aspects sometimes. 

X2

 

[robertrandall]

Now in my experience things aren't so cut and dry. Most people I've seen make bacon hot smoke it, this does several things: It makes for a more tender product, it adds a different smoke character and helps the flavor penetrate. Traditionally there was a slot in a fireplace in which you would put cured bellies to smoke for weeks. Also people have been saying if it doesn't have pink salt it's not "cured" that is simply wrong, people have cured meat with just salt for centuries. Also that in all likelihood you are not going to be eating your bacon raw. (though people eat pancetta raw like ham but it is a saltier dryer version). Now I have made bacon both with and without pink salt and there is a flavor difference as is the case with adding any preservative to anything. 

 

[alblancher]

In my opinion curing bacon with just salt gives you smoked salted pork belly.  In the old days much of the available salt contained naturally occurring Potassium nitrites and nitrates both effective curing agents.

Salt makes water less available to the bugs slowing their growth.  Drying also helps.  Smoke provides a limited amount of nitrites (smoke ring)

Nitrites are a safe way to improve the safety, taste and color of meat held without refrigeration for long periods of time.

 

[gretscher]

I'm new to this bacon making and from research I found that cold smoking was the thing to do but did not realize that most people hot smoke it.  I just read here all the time that you should cold smoke it rather than hot smoke it as you don't want the fat to render as in hot smoking does.  How about you, do you hot or cold smoke it and what do you prefer?  How long should one hot smoke it?  I take it about 225 degrees F for about 2 hours, is that correct?  Thanks.

Now in my experience things aren't so cut and dry. Most people I've seen make bacon hot smoke it, this does several things: It makes for a more tender product, it adds a different smoke character and helps the flavor penetrate. Traditionally there was a slot in a fireplace in which you would put cured bellies to smoke for weeks. Also people have been saying if it doesn't have pink salt it's not "cured" that is simply wrong, people have cured meat with just salt for centuries. Also that in all likelihood you are not going to be eating your bacon raw. (though people eat pancetta raw like ham but it is a saltier dryer version). Now I have made bacon both with and without pink salt and there is a flavor difference as is the case with adding any preservative to anything. 

 

[robertrandall]

In Michael Ruhlman's "charcuterie" he says you should smoke the bacon until it reaches an internal temp of 150. This does not render the fat very much at all it simply loosens up the meat and lets that smoke really penetrate. When I smoke my bacon I do so at between 170 and 200 degrees for 2 to 3 hours. In Ruhlman's book he doesn't even bring up cold smoking bacon and insists that if you don't have a smoker that you put you cured belly in a low oven until it reaches the desired temp.

Of course there are many ways of doing these things.

In europe they rarely use chemical nitrates think of a parma or even a virginia country ham. That is simply salt, pork and time and its stable enough to last for years and can be eaten raw. It's also very salty so it's a bacterial wasteland.

Heres a guy who uses no nitrates and cold-smokes but does it for days and days



I think the main thing is don't be scared, 

This is from Michael Ruhlman's Website:

The Big Common Sense Issues:

—If you’ll be thoroughly cooking the food before eating it, as with bacon or pancetta, there are no bacteria or botulism issues since cooking food to those high temperatures takes care of any bad microbes and the botulism toxin, should there be any.

—All mold except for chalky white mold should be immediately removed from the meat with a brine or with vinegar. It does not mean that you should throw it away. But be if mold has been allowed to grow for a long time, it can penetrate the meat. Use your common sense.

—If your food smells rotten or looks unappetizing, don’t eat it.  If you have reason to be concerned about bacterial contamination and don’t want to throw it away, cook it before eating it.

—When dry-curing sausage, always use a curing salt to protect against botulism bacteria.

 

[alblancher]

In Michael Ruhlman's "charcuterie" he says you should smoke the bacon until it reaches an internal temp of 150. This does not render the fat very much at all it simply loosens up the meat and lets that smoke really penetrate. When I smoke my bacon I do so at between 170 and 200 degrees for 2 to 3 hours. In Ruhlman's book he doesn't even bring up cold smoking bacon and insists that if you don't have a smoker that you put you cured belly in a low oven until it reaches the desired temp.

As I mentioned previously If you wish to call hot smoked salted pork bacon it is your perogitive.  When we refer to bacon we normally mean a cured, smoked product

If you hot smoke the salted belly to those internal temperatures and then keep it refrigerated you do not need cure.

Of course there are many ways of doing these things.

In europe they rarely use chemical nitrates think of a parma or even a virginia country ham. That is simply salt, pork and time and its stable enough to last for years and can be eaten raw. It's also very salty so it's a bacterial wasteland.

Heres a guy who uses no nitrates and cold-smokes but does it for days and days



This is a documentary of how things used to be done.  Modern food preperation techniques and the proper use of cures has greatly increased the safety of our food supplies

I think the main thing is don't be scared, 

This is from Michael Ruhlman's Website:

The Big Common Sense Issues:

—If you’ll be thoroughly cooking the food before eating it, as with bacon or pancetta, there are no bacteria or botulism issues since cooking food to those high temperatures takes care of any bad microbes and the botulism toxin, should there be any.  Don't know where to start with this one, I believe there are heat stable toxins.  Beside who wants to eat something that smells bad? 

—All mold except for chalky white mold should be immediately removed from the meat with a brine or with vinegar. It does not mean that you should throw it away. But be if mold has been allowed to grow for a long time, it can penetrate the meat. Use your common sense.

—If your food smells rotten or looks unappetizing, don’t eat it.  If you have reason to be concerned about bacterial contamination and don’t want to throw it away, cook it before eating it.  Kind of contrary to the first statement

—When dry-curing sausage, always use a curing salt to protect against botulism bacteria.  How is dry cured sausage different from dry cured bacon?

 

[diggingdogfarm]

Dry cured, cold smoked bacon is far superior, IMHO!!!

Heres a guy who uses no nitrates and cold-smokes but does it for days and days

That's incorrect, see the video at about 2:42.....he uses Morton's Smoke Flavored Sugar cure, which contains nitrate but no nitrite.

From the video......



~Martin

 

[alblancher]

Thanks for catching that.  I clicked around in the video and missed the cure

 

[robertrandall]

Good call on the smoke flavored cure i missed that.

I don't know, alblancher  I know you are the moderator on this site and I'm sure you make great bacon, but Michael Ruhlman and Brian Polcyn are major and well respected authorities on this and their work is where I've gotten most of my information. 

I think it's best not to make broad sweeping statements about what is and what isn't bacon because of personal taste. If hormel can call what they make bacon surely theres room for a more traditional approach within the definition. 

Dry cured sausage is different from bacon because sausage is a ground product and bacon is a whole muscle and microbs grow differently in the two different products. The meat in a salami is in a far more airless environment in the casing and therefore the chances of botulism are much higher. additionally any bacteria that in in meat is on the surface and is a product of the butchery. With bacon or ham that bacteria is killed by the direct contact with salt. For centuries with salami people added celery juice or other sorces of natural nitrate to there mix along with wine to help jump start the lactic fermentation.

so thats the difference.

As for the other arguments, obviously if your bacon comes out bad it's bad. His points were don't be afraid your bacon won't kill you. And in all likelyhood it won't

 

[diggingdogfarm]

Hot smoking of bacon is a relatively new technique favored because most folks don't have the capability to cold smoke, but nearly everybody has a grill.
I don't know any old timer's who hot smoke bacon.
My family has been making dry cured, cold smoked bacon for many generations.



~Martin

 

[pops6927]

I was not very knowledgable about making bacon before I joined this forum so I thought any bacon I bought in the grocery was really bacon but I am really curious about the "bacon" I purchase from time to time at Albertson's. 

Here is the thing and you could help me figure this out - 

The "bacon" actually isn't reddish but more gray color than anything and it doesn't taste like bacon that I'd make at home with the cure added to it.  Mine comes out reddish or pinkish but the one from Albertson's that is in the meat case does not look like that color. Now I'm wondering if I'm just buying salted pork belly because it taste more like that than actual bacon.  

The bacon in the meatcase is sliced slab bacon.  Years ago this was how bacon was sold, usually in the slab unsliced (that's the way dad sold it; one tray with the rind, another without the rind).  Once the bacon is exposed to light, the pink color soon fades, much like a steak turning from red to gray.  The fat gets more yellow, the lean turns dark gray and starts to dehydrate and shrink.  Slice off a couple slices to the 'fresh stuff' and toss those slices into the bacon ends and pieces tray and you start anew.  At Albertson's, the whole slab is sliced, the end is gray.  If you buy a pound, the end slice is gray and depending how tight the slab is kept (keeping light and oxygen out) the inner slices are more pink.  If 2 or 3 days old (as often is the case) it may not have much pink left.  But, that doesn't degrade the product, it will still fry up fine.  The smoke aroma also fades the longer it is out, and doesn't get anywhere's near as concentrated as home made.

In my opinion curing bacon with just salt gives you smoked salted pork belly.  In the old days much of the available salt contained naturally occurring Potassium nitrites and nitrates both effective curing agents.

Salt makes water less available to the bugs slowing their growth.  Drying also helps.  Smoke provides a limited amount of nitrites (smoke ring)

Nitrites are a safe way to improve the safety, taste and color of meat held without refrigeration for long periods of time.

When bacon is smoked "for days - weeks" as mentioned, it is drying the bacon and successively preserving the meat from constant exposure to smoke, as evidenced in a smoke ring.  The continued smoking will preserve the meat all the way through from the smoldering wood.  But, it's just plain easier to smoke it 8 hours with cure instead vs. weeks.  What was is now made better.

The time and temps are not quite right.  Cold smoke is at 80° - 100° internal for raw bacon.  Hot smoked is min. 135° in partially cooked bacon or hams, 146° for fully cooked bacon or hams.  Over 146° rendering of fat increases.  However, frying or baking the bacon likewise renders the fat also just the same.  The end result it cooking the bacon to an internal temp of 160° or higher, depending on the crispness you want.  from start to end, you will lose 60% or more of fat plus shrink the lean also.  The less fat you render in the 'making' process the  more it will just fry away in the end. 

 

[DanMcG]

Welcome Robert, Why don't ya stop by roll call and introduce yourself.

By salting a bacon you are preserving the meat not curing it. you need nitrite or nitrate to cure a piece of meat.

 

[daveomak]

Robert, evening.....  I do not believe you have had bacon the way it was made in the pre 1960's..... It wasn't pumped.... It wasn't hot smoked.... It was cured with nitrates and nitrites and cold smoked for weeks.....  Now the USDA says no nitrates for health reasons..... Nitrites by the way are the same whether it is sodium, potassium celery or beet etc.... there is no difference in "organic" or "inorganic" nitrite in the respect as to the way it acts on meats and bacteria, botulism etc....  using nitrites can save you life in certain situations....  salt is a wonderful thing also... some salt contains nitrites and nitrates... that is why some folks did not get sick or die in centuries past....  the guy who operated the smoker and had access to nitrated salt, his customers did not get sick.... he became rich....

Some definitions of bacon are a lot different from our definition of bacon.... Try making "old world" (so to speak) bacon or find a butchers shop that carries it and try it....  Since you live on the coast, give Hempler's bacon a try... I believe they still make 3 recipes.... you will see and taste the difference.... It is worth the price....  As far as getting most of your information from Ruhlman and Polcyn, you are fortunate to have landed here in our smoking home...  There are some pretty good cooks here.... I would put many of them up against R & P in a heartbeat when it comes to sausage,  BBQ, curing meats etc....    Stick around and prove me an idiot or join the greatest smoking forum on the web..... 

PS: Ruhlman and Polcyn are well respected here also.... their recipes are used throughout the forum....

Anyway glad you stopped in.... this Forum can become addicting...

great folks willing to help and share their knowledge and long time proven recipes.... enjoy the long smokey ride....   Dave

 

[robertrandall]

Thanks for the warm welcome Dave. I enjoy the debate and I really like hearing other peoples opinions and listening to them share their knowledge and the benefit of their experience. 

DanMcG according to webster to cure is:

to prepare or alter especially by chemical or physical processing for keeping or use 

Also air dried ham is also called cured ham and it traditionally is made with just salt. A cure can mean a lot of things I think.

 

[diggingdogfarm]

Not intended to start an argument, but for clarification and FWIW.....

The USDA considers the application salt only (as well as salt and other optional ingredients) to be "curing" when dry curing.

"(a) “Country Ham,” “Country Style Ham,” or “Dry Cured Ham,” and “Country Pork Shoulder,” “Country Style Pork Shoulder,” or “Dry Cured Pork Shoulder.” are the uncooked, cured, dried, smoked or unsmoked meat food products made respectively from a single piece of meat conforming to the definition of “ham,” as specified in §317.8(b)(13) of this subchapter, or from a single piece of meat from a pork shoulder. They are prepared in accordance with paragraph (c) of this section by the dry application of salt (NaCl), or by the dry application of salt (NaCl) and one or more of the optional ingredients as specified in paragraph (d) of this section. They may not be injected with curing solutions nor placed in curing solutions."

(d) The optional ingredients for products covered in this section are:
(1) Nutritive sweeteners, spices, seasonings and flavorings.
(2) Sodium or potassium nitrate and sodium or potassium nitrite if used as prescribed in this section and in accordance with a regulation permitting that use in this subchapter or 9 CFR Chapter III, Subchapter E, or in 21 CFR Chapter I, Subchapter A or Subchapter B.

http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-types/federal-regulations-sausage

~Martin

 

[chef jimmyj]

The term " Curing " can and is used in a variety of applications. Brine Curing, Salt Curing, Injection Curing, Dry Curing, Smoke Curing, the list is long. I have heard Chefs refer to making Ceviche as Acid Curing Fish. So pretty much all the techniques described previously are Curing. As long as a technique is applied safely and the results are tasty, it's all good...JJ