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Apple cider & cure #1

Discussion in 'Curing' started by buzzy, Nov 10, 2018 at 9:04 AM.

  1. buzzy

    buzzy Smoking Fanatic

    This was brought to my attention by zwiller and I did some searching. U should not add cure to acidic liquids. Like apple cider, vinegar, or liquid smoke for example. Plus I’m sure there is more. It’s said the cure will rapidly decompose into nitric oxide. A very dangerous gas. Wondering how many others r aware of this. Plus others thought. Thanks in advance
     
    daveomak and zwiller like this.
  2. chef jimmyj

    chef jimmyj Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator Group Lead OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    DaveOmak had a thread awhile ago. Add soda/pop like Cola, Rootbeer, Dr. Pepper, etc. These as have various acids in the mix...JJ
     
  3. zwiller

    zwiller Smoking Fanatic

    Thanks for posting. I am still researching... My gut is telling me that the concerns are mainly at the lab level. IE pure sodium nitrite and hydrochloric acid. Not cure #1 and apple juice or even ACV. I just added 1 level tsp cure#1 to 1/4c white vinegar and while was a little reaction, it was a few tiny bubbles. My dreams of homemade laughing gas and/or "blue pill" shattered... :p

    First off, there is NOTHING in Marianski about these concerns. If anything, there is info relating to ADDING ascorbic ACID to cure to accelerate the cure...

    The National Center for Home Food Preservation
    Guide and Literature Review Series:
    Smoking and Curing

    1. Sodium nitrite is reduced to nitrous acid in the presence of an acidic environment (e.g., by fermentation or by addition of glucono-δ(delta)-lactone).
    2. Nitrous acid forms nitric oxide. Nitric oxide reacts with myoglobin (meat pigments) to form a red color.
    The time required for a cured color to develop may be shortened with the use of cure accelerators, e.g., ascorbic acid, erythorbic acid, or their derivatives. Cure accelerators tend to speed up chemical conversion of nitric acid to nitric oxide. They also serve as oxygen scavengers, which slow the fading of the cured meat color in the presence of sunlight and oxygen. Some studies have indicated that cure accelerators have antimicrobial properties, especially for the newly emerging pathogens like E. coli O157:H7 and Listeria monocytogenes (Doyle 1999). Since cure accelerators are rarely used in home curing, this information needs further review or research to determine what benefits home curing would have by using certain cure accelerators.
     
  4. zwiller

    zwiller Smoking Fanatic

    Agreed that is the common understanding. However, in researching I find a different thought (more often). There is no discussion of affect on cure and the reason for encapsulation is to prevent the protein from being denatured and negatively affect texture.
    https://www.waltonsinc.com/encapsulated-citric-acid

    Not trying to go too far down the rabbit hole, but apple and pork play so well together I am pushing the envelope. Based on my previous post, acid just reduces the nitrite to nitric acid. In other words, speeds conversion not destroy or inhibits. I actually can't find a cite that says acid destroys nitrite or has an affect on cure.
     
  5. gmc2003

    gmc2003 Master of the Pit

    Man it's starting to sound like you need a PHD in Microbiology to cure meat. I was thinking about taking the plunge, but now so sure.

    Chris
     
  6. chef jimmyj

    chef jimmyj Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator Group Lead OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    You are correct. I was misinterpreting the issue and deleted my post to avoid confusion. Acid, ascorbic, citric, erythorbate, does accelerate the curing process and is commonly used in commercial operations. I see no reason not to use Apple juice. I may be concerned as a worker in a Hot Dog factory that harmful nitric oxide gas can reach high concentrations, but a 5 or even 50 pound batch of Pork and Apple sausage, or a Cider Cured Ham? I highly doubt there is a need for concern...JJ
     
  7. zwiller

    zwiller Smoking Fanatic

    Stick to the guides by the pros Pops, Bear, DaveOmak, Disco, etc and you'll be fine Chris. Sorry for murkying the waters. I am just pushing the envelope (my nature LOL).

    Feels a lot better getting an OK from you Chef. I sense a pork loin test coming on soon...
     
  8. buzzy

    buzzy Smoking Fanatic

    Between the nitric oxide & tryptophan it could make for a lazy Thanksgiving I’ll see if I can find the others post on this. Thanks guys


     
  9. daveomak

    daveomak Smoking Guru OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    There is a big difference between nitric oxide and nitrous oxide.....
    For the Consumer
    Applies to nitric oxide: inhalation gas

    Along with its needed effects, nitric oxide may cause some unwanted effects. Although not all of these side effects may occur, if they do occur they may need medical attention.

    Check with your doctor or nurse immediately if any of the following side effects occur while taking nitric oxide:


    More Common
    • Blurred vision
    • confusion
    • dizziness, faintness, or lightheadedness when getting up suddenly from a lying or sitting position
    • sweating
    • unusual tiredness or weakness
    Incidence Not Known
    • Bluish lips or skin
    • chest discomfort
    • difficult or labored breathing
    • dizziness
    • tightness in the chest
    • trouble breathing
    Get emergency help immediately if any of the following symptoms of overdose occur while taking nitric oxide:

    Symptoms of Overdose
    • Bluish-colored lips, fingernails, or palms
    • dark urine
    • fever
    • headache
    • pale skin
    • rapid heart rate
    • sore throat
    • unusual bleeding or bruising
    Some side effects of nitric oxide may occur that usually do not need medical attention. These side effects may go away during treatment as your body adjusts to the medicine. Also, your health care professional may be able to tell you about ways to prevent or reduce some of these side effects. Check with your health care professional if any of the following side effects continue or are bothersome or if you have any questions about them:

    Potential Side Effects of Nitrous Oxide
    Overview
    Nitrous oxide is a colorless and odorless substance that’s also known as “laughing gas.” When inhaled, the gas slows down the body’s reaction time. This results in a calm, euphoric feeling.

    Nitrous oxide can be used to treat pain. It also functions as a mild sedative. Because of this, it’s sometimes used before dental procedures to promote relaxation and reduce anxiety.

    Nitrous oxide gas works fast as a sedative, but it doesn’t take long for the effects to wear off.

    Nitrous oxide is safe. But like any type of drug, side effects may occur. Here’s a look at the potential side effects of nitrous oxide.

    [paste:font size="5"]
    many who receive the gas don’t have adverse reactions or complications at all.


    When side effects do happen, they often occur as the result of inhaling too much of the gas or inhaling the gas too fast.

    Common short-term side effects include:

    • excessive sweating
    • shivering
    • nausea
    • vomiting
    • dizziness
    • fatigue
    Some people also experience hallucinations or sound distortion after inhaling nitrous oxide.

    Oxygen is sometimes administered along with nitrous oxide. If not, you may receive oxygen for about five minutes after your doctor turns off the gas.

    Oxygen helps clear any remaining gas from your body. This will help you regain alertness after your procedure. Getting sufficient oxygen may also prevent a headache, which is another possible side effect of laughing gas.

    You should be able to drive yourself home after receiving nitrous oxide at a dental appointment. But you’ll need to wait until you’re fully alert. This may take about 15 minutes, according to the California Dental Association.

    To prepare your body for nitrous oxide, eat light meals before you receive the gas. This can prevent nausea and vomiting. Also, avoid heavy meals for at least three hours after receiving the gas.

    Be alert to signs and symptoms of an allergic reaction after inhaling nitrous oxide. They can include:
     
  10. zwiller

    zwiller Smoking Fanatic

    Sorry for the laughing gas confusion, was trying to be funny.
     
  11. daveomak

    daveomak Smoking Guru OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    No problem.... Everything I have read notes the danger of adding an acid to nitrite...
     
  12. buzzy

    buzzy Smoking Fanatic

    Sorry dave was trying to make a laugh. Didn’t mean for it to be taken seriously even though curing meat does need to be taken seriously so no ill effects. Could u point me to your thread about soda/ pop and there various acids. Don’t really know what to put in search. Thanks
     
  13. daveomak

    daveomak Smoking Guru OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    Acidic curing brines..
    Never add acidic ingredients to a curing brine.... I was discussing this with N4YNU, a member here, relating how I couldn't find evidence to verify that statement... Well, younger eyes were able to provide certified reason for that statement.. Thanks much Guy.... Dave
    safety
    When adding curing salts to brine, it's important that the brine not be too acidic. A highly acidic solution will cause the curing salts to very rapidly decompose into nitric oxide, which is dangerous as a concentrated gas. So don't add vinegar to the brine, and never mix liquid smoke (which is acidic) directly with curing salts.

    You'll need to make sure the pH is 4.8 or above. If the Coca Cola is the only thing in the brine, it will be too acidic.
    https://www.chefsteps.com/ingredients/prague-powder-no-1

    Poison Facts:
    Low Chemicals: Nitric Oxide
    http://www.kumed.com/~/media/Imported/kumed/documents/nitricoxide.ashx?la=en

    Properties of the Chemical
    At room temperature, nitric oxide is a colorless gas with a sweet odor. It is
    slightly soluble in water, but is highly reactive. Although the gas itself is nonflammable,
    it will accelerate combustion and increase the risk of fire and
    explosion in combustible and flammable materials.
    Uses of the Chemical
    The main sources of nitrogen oxides emissions (including nitric oxide) are
    combustion processes. Fossil fuel power stations, motor vehicles and domestic
    combustion appliances emit nitrogen oxides, mostly in the form of nitric oxide.
    The chemical is used occupationally in the bleaching of rayon and in the
    manufacture of nitric acid. Nitric oxide can be present at significant concentrations
    in ambient and indoor air. It is used medically by inhalation to produce
    selective pulmonary vasodilation and to improve oxygenation in patients with
    various forms of pulmonary hypertension.
    Absorption, Distribution, Metabolism and Excretion (ADME)
    Nitric oxide is a gas; therefore, absorption can only occur through the eyes and
    lungs. However, it will have contact effects with the skin. In the presence of
    moisture and oxygen, corrosive conditions will develop as a result of the
    formation of nitric and nitrous acids. The major proportion of inhaled nitric
    oxide reaches the deeper parts of the lung and reacts with hemoglobin in
    erythrocytes to form nitrosylhemoglobin which is converted immediately to
    nitrite and nitrate. The nitrite and nitrate are then transferred to the serum, and
    the greater part of the nitrate is excreted into the urine through the kidneys.
    Most of the inhaled nitric oxide is eventually eliminated from the body as
    nitrate.
    Clinical Effects of Acute Exposure
    Nitric oxide is a skin, eye and mucous membrane irritant. This is due to the fact
    that moisture and oxygen convert nitric oxide into nitric and nitrous acids. The
    most hazardous effects of nitric oxide are to the lungs. Inhalation causes
    symptoms of coughing and shortness of breath, along with a burning in the
    throat and chest. Patients may experience nausea and fatigue. Some pulmonary
    symptoms may be delayed several hours. Methemoglobinemia may also occur.
    In-Field Treatment Prior to Arrival at a Health Care Facility
    • Remove the patient from the contaminated area. Nitric oxide’s effects on the
    lungs increase upon exertion. All patients should be carried from the contaminated
    area.
    • Flood skin and eyes with water.
    • If patient is experiencing difficulty breathing, coughing that does not resolve
    with fresh air or tightness in the chest, administer oxygen if available. All
    patients with pulmonary symptoms should be transported to the emergency
    room.
    Special note to first responders:
    • Wear a positive-pressure Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus (SCBA).
    • Wear chemical protective clothing that is specifically recommended by the
    manufacturer.
    Treatment of Exposures in a Health Care Facility
    • When the patient arrives at the health care facility, irrigate eyes and skin with
    copious amounts of water.
    • Monitor for respiratory distress, and administer oxygen or assist with
    ventilation as necessary. Treat bronchospasm with inhaled beta2 agonists.
    • Pulmonary edema may develop and is a delayed effect.
    • Methemoglobinemia may occur because nitric oxide has a high affinity for
    hemoglobin. It is the most rapidly binding ligand of hemoglobin currently
    known and oxidizes reduced hemoglobin to methemoglobin.
    • Acidosis may occur secondary to anoxia.
    • Anticoagulation: Nitric oxide has been shown to inhibit both platelet
    adhesion and aggregation.
    For more poison prevention and first aid information, call the
     
  14. chef jimmyj

    chef jimmyj Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator Group Lead OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    This is in no way a contradiction of Daves fine work and info, just additional information and my opinion...
    While I don't doubt there can be issues with combining cure with acids of any type, converting nitrite to nitric oxide, I just can't see how Apple juice in a Brine with 156ppm nitrite, can create lethal or even harmful amount of gas. Review of the Inspectors Handbook goes into detail on use and measurement of acidic cure excelerators, in immersion and pump curing solutions, with not a single caution to avoid gas. This would not be something the USDA/FSIS would leave out if there was a major concern for the Inspectors. A Google search of...Risk of adding Cure #1 to an Acidic Brine...Gave the Chef Steps article above and a bunch of other articles on using Cure #1 or Brines, but a quick scan resulted in no further mention of any risk or warning. Zero from the USDA Food Safety articles.

    I feel it is like any other, " Warning _____ will kill you..." articles on the web. Cured meat will kill you. Crispy Bacon will kill you. Smoked meats will kill you. Any Cure but Celery Juice will kill you. Eating Raw/Rare Beef will kill you. Washing Poultry will kill you. MSG will kill you.
    It boils down to use your head! Educate yourself on the risks. ( So far so good, you're here reading this thread!!!) Work in a Well Ventilated area. Seal the Brine container. Inject all meat you cure, even small pieces of meat, to shorten the cure/handling contact time. Report results...JJ
     
  15. hondabbq

    hondabbq Smoke Blower

    I add quartered oranges to my pops brine when making back bacon. It turns out great. I squeeze the juice out and drop in the quartered pieces. Probably not enough to be concerned with the posts above, as its not creating a highly acidic environment.
     
  16. buzzy

    buzzy Smoking Fanatic

    THANKS dave & JJ. This is enough info to make me back away from using cure in anything acidic. I’ll just stick to making brine with it without cure. Greatly appreciated
     
  17. chef jimmyj

    chef jimmyj Smoking Guru Staff Member Moderator Group Lead OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    There is no need to back away, Completely...
    According to what I read, Apple Cider/Juice has a pH in the mid 3's. Keep the pH of the Brine at 4.6 or higher and there is no issue. Should you get a test kit? No...I would guess, 1Qt Apple Juice and 3QT Water would give flavor without lowering the pH too far...JJ
     
  18. daveomak

    daveomak Smoking Guru OTBS Member SMF Premier Member

    The papers I cited, were intended to make folks aware... I have no idea how much of what becomes dangerous.. Degredation of nitrite, by adding acid, is what I thought had "some" importance...
    I just find and read this stuff and pass it on for our members to do any additional investigation, should they choose to do so..
     
  19. My understanding it that 0.0001% Citric acid is used in commercial production as a cure accelerator. Sodium erythorbate (C6H7NaO6) is also added as a food additive used predominantly in meats, poultry, and soft drinks. Chemically, it is the sodiumsalt of erythorbic acid. It is also a cure accelerator, though a mild one.

    The reason for their use is to speed up the stuffing to smoking time. If you let your meat sit over night before smoking, you do not need it. Though the erythorbate will help keep the sausages looking brighter for longer.

    Hope this helps.....
     
  20. Walton's Meat Hacks:cure accelerators...