I have a small batch of Lonza in my curing chambers first run. I looked in this mornig and noticed some white somewhat fuzzy mold starting on all three pieces. Now, I know white mold is not a problem, but my question is, does it appear even if it was not treated with something like Mold 600? I am hoping some more experienced members can chime in here. I will put a pic up later.
White Mold
- Thread starter Robert H
- Start date
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This may help you out some.
Friendly Bacteria
Pediococcus cerevisiae – Responsible for the fermentation that turns sugar into lactic acid. This bacteria is often used in sausage fermentation cultures, but it is also one of the bacteria that ferments vegetables.
Micrococcus – A genus of bacteria that breaks sodium nitrate down to sodium nitrite in long cures.
Leuconostoc – A lactic bacteria responsible for fermentation of sugar into lactic acid.
Staphylococcus – During the fermentation process, this bacteria grows if the curing sausage is above 60F before reaching a pH of 5.3. This is also used to reduce nitrate levels.
Lactobacillus – This genus of bacteria are responsible for fermentation in yogurt, cheese, wine, beer, cider, kimchi, and pickles.
Penicillium nalgiovense – Highly desired in some Italian salamis.
Dangerous Bacteria
There are numerous species of bacteria that threaten to ruin a good cured meat. Here are some of the more common threats:
Clostridium botulinum – C. botulinum produces a neurotoxin that can cause paralysis and death. The bacteria dies when exposed to atmospheric oxygen, so it needs to grow in an anerobic environment, like the inside of a curing ham. A combination of acid produced by lactic bacteria and dryness will prevent it from growing in a curing food. The toxin can also be denatured at temperatures above 176F. The botulin toxin is extremely poisonous – 1kg would be enough to kill every human on earth. The botulinum toxin is also the active ingredient in Botox.
Clostridium perfringens – Related to C. botulinum, this bacteria is extremely heat resistant. It can survive boiling for more than four hours. It tends to grow in an anaerobic, warm, moist, and protein rich environment. It tends to grow in meat that is heated or prepared and left out for too long before eating. It is one of the leading causes of food poisoning in the United States.
Escherichia coli – Although most strains of E. coli are harmless, there are some virulent strains that can infect food if it is improperly handled. Most common when animals are raised in a dirty environment. Has been found in dry-cured salami and cured game meats.
Listeria monocytogenes – Found in fermented sausages. It is tolerant of low temperatures, acidic environments (as low as 5.0 pH), salt, and dryness. It is, however, easily destroyed by heat. It causes Listeriosis, which is rare in humans. If contracted, it can cause meningitis and death. In pregnant women, who account for approximately 30% of cases in the United States, the disease gives the mother mild flu-like symptoms, but can lead to a miscarriage or life-threatening infection for the fetus.
Lactobacillus viridescens – Commonly associated with greening of meat from hydrogen peroxide.
Salmonella – Occurs in raw or undercooked food. Infection causes food poisoning, and can be prevented by proper handling and heating the food above 167F.
Trichinella spiralis (trichinae) – A parasite found in pork that invades muscles to cause severe pain and edema. In the United States, cases averaged over 400 a year in the late 1940’s, and have dropped to around 9 a year for the period of 2002-2016.
Staphylococcus aureus (staph) – High salt levels inhibit its growth on the outside of dry-cured meats, but it can grow once the meat is sliced.
Mold – Not a bacterium, but worth mentioning, mold doesn’t typically grow inside a piece of meat, but can grow on the surface if drying is too slow and/or humidity in the drying environment is too high. Often harmless, but can sometimes produce mycotoxins. Will typically grow in areas exposed to oxygen, which is why foods pickling are cut off from the atmosphere. Most mold can be washed off with hot water and a stiff scrub brush.
This is for a more traditional style salami. If however you happen to get molds just look at the colors and texture.
In many European countries (France, Italy and others) it is a normal occurence to see a salami with a white surface mold. This is how it has been made for hundreds of years, the mold is intentional and it contributes to the wonderful flavor of the sausage. It also protects the sausage from the effects of light and oxygen which helps to preserve color and slows down rancidity of fat. Mold covered salamis are not smoked as the smoke application will prevent molds from growing on the surface. Cold smoking sausages (below 25º C, 78º F after fermentation (after around 48 hours) will prevent mold from growing on its surface. Mold can be removed by wiping it off with a rag soaked in vinegar solution. The color of the mold should be white or off-white and not yellow, green, or black. As mold in time can grow to a considerable length it is brushed off before consumption.
Yeast and molds grow much slower than bacteria in fermented meats and sausages and they develop later in a ripening process. They utilize some of the lactic acid that was created during the fermentation stage thus increasing pH (lowering acidity) what as a result improves flavor in a slower fermented product. They don't seem to be affected by a pH drop in the fermentation stage and will grow in a vast range of temperatures (8º -25º C, 46º -78º F) as long as there is high humidity in a chamber. To ensure fast growth at the begining temperatures higher than 20º C (68º F) and humidity over 90% is required.
Non desirable molds include black , green, brown, redish with fuzz. Green molds in the powdery state have been know to be safe.
Also note that Bactoferm Mold600 should not be sprayed on the outer casing of salumi.
Friendly Bacteria
Pediococcus cerevisiae – Responsible for the fermentation that turns sugar into lactic acid. This bacteria is often used in sausage fermentation cultures, but it is also one of the bacteria that ferments vegetables.
Micrococcus – A genus of bacteria that breaks sodium nitrate down to sodium nitrite in long cures.
Leuconostoc – A lactic bacteria responsible for fermentation of sugar into lactic acid.
Staphylococcus – During the fermentation process, this bacteria grows if the curing sausage is above 60F before reaching a pH of 5.3. This is also used to reduce nitrate levels.
Lactobacillus – This genus of bacteria are responsible for fermentation in yogurt, cheese, wine, beer, cider, kimchi, and pickles.
Penicillium nalgiovense – Highly desired in some Italian salamis.
Dangerous Bacteria
There are numerous species of bacteria that threaten to ruin a good cured meat. Here are some of the more common threats:
Clostridium botulinum – C. botulinum produces a neurotoxin that can cause paralysis and death. The bacteria dies when exposed to atmospheric oxygen, so it needs to grow in an anerobic environment, like the inside of a curing ham. A combination of acid produced by lactic bacteria and dryness will prevent it from growing in a curing food. The toxin can also be denatured at temperatures above 176F. The botulin toxin is extremely poisonous – 1kg would be enough to kill every human on earth. The botulinum toxin is also the active ingredient in Botox.
Clostridium perfringens – Related to C. botulinum, this bacteria is extremely heat resistant. It can survive boiling for more than four hours. It tends to grow in an anaerobic, warm, moist, and protein rich environment. It tends to grow in meat that is heated or prepared and left out for too long before eating. It is one of the leading causes of food poisoning in the United States.
Escherichia coli – Although most strains of E. coli are harmless, there are some virulent strains that can infect food if it is improperly handled. Most common when animals are raised in a dirty environment. Has been found in dry-cured salami and cured game meats.
Listeria monocytogenes – Found in fermented sausages. It is tolerant of low temperatures, acidic environments (as low as 5.0 pH), salt, and dryness. It is, however, easily destroyed by heat. It causes Listeriosis, which is rare in humans. If contracted, it can cause meningitis and death. In pregnant women, who account for approximately 30% of cases in the United States, the disease gives the mother mild flu-like symptoms, but can lead to a miscarriage or life-threatening infection for the fetus.
Lactobacillus viridescens – Commonly associated with greening of meat from hydrogen peroxide.
Salmonella – Occurs in raw or undercooked food. Infection causes food poisoning, and can be prevented by proper handling and heating the food above 167F.
Trichinella spiralis (trichinae) – A parasite found in pork that invades muscles to cause severe pain and edema. In the United States, cases averaged over 400 a year in the late 1940’s, and have dropped to around 9 a year for the period of 2002-2016.
Staphylococcus aureus (staph) – High salt levels inhibit its growth on the outside of dry-cured meats, but it can grow once the meat is sliced.
Mold – Not a bacterium, but worth mentioning, mold doesn’t typically grow inside a piece of meat, but can grow on the surface if drying is too slow and/or humidity in the drying environment is too high. Often harmless, but can sometimes produce mycotoxins. Will typically grow in areas exposed to oxygen, which is why foods pickling are cut off from the atmosphere. Most mold can be washed off with hot water and a stiff scrub brush.
This is for a more traditional style salami. If however you happen to get molds just look at the colors and texture.
In many European countries (France, Italy and others) it is a normal occurence to see a salami with a white surface mold. This is how it has been made for hundreds of years, the mold is intentional and it contributes to the wonderful flavor of the sausage. It also protects the sausage from the effects of light and oxygen which helps to preserve color and slows down rancidity of fat. Mold covered salamis are not smoked as the smoke application will prevent molds from growing on the surface. Cold smoking sausages (below 25º C, 78º F after fermentation (after around 48 hours) will prevent mold from growing on its surface. Mold can be removed by wiping it off with a rag soaked in vinegar solution. The color of the mold should be white or off-white and not yellow, green, or black. As mold in time can grow to a considerable length it is brushed off before consumption.
Yeast and molds grow much slower than bacteria in fermented meats and sausages and they develop later in a ripening process. They utilize some of the lactic acid that was created during the fermentation stage thus increasing pH (lowering acidity) what as a result improves flavor in a slower fermented product. They don't seem to be affected by a pH drop in the fermentation stage and will grow in a vast range of temperatures (8º -25º C, 46º -78º F) as long as there is high humidity in a chamber. To ensure fast growth at the begining temperatures higher than 20º C (68º F) and humidity over 90% is required.
- Yeast - Debaromyces
- Mold - Penicillium
Non desirable molds include black , green, brown, redish with fuzz. Green molds in the powdery state have been know to be safe.
Also note that Bactoferm Mold600 should not be sprayed on the outer casing of salumi.
How's your humidity? The fuzzy white stuff I use to wipe off with vinegar (But I haven't cured in a long time, so take my help with a grain of salt), And I think it caused by high humidity.
- Feb 6, 2021
- 244
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From a much less experienced member - I wouldn't sweat it too much. This web page - step 6 says white mold is fine. https://thehungrydogblog.com/2014/10/how-to-make-lonza/#:~:text=Provided you only have good,and inhibit further mold growth
On the other hand, being the first cure in your new curing chamber, you may not be growing the penicillium sp. found in mold600, but that may not matter at all. It couldn't hurt to wipe it off with vinegar, but wash your hands well before handling the meat to reduce any chance of further (and new) contamination. If you'd already had other meats in there that had been treated with mold 600 then I wouldn't worry about it at all. (edit) You didn't say whether you put the meat in a casing/bung etc. If that was the case, then I'd feel very safe leaving it as is. Love to hear how it turns out....
On the other hand, being the first cure in your new curing chamber, you may not be growing the penicillium sp. found in mold600, but that may not matter at all. It couldn't hurt to wipe it off with vinegar, but wash your hands well before handling the meat to reduce any chance of further (and new) contamination. If you'd already had other meats in there that had been treated with mold 600 then I wouldn't worry about it at all. (edit) You didn't say whether you put the meat in a casing/bung etc. If that was the case, then I'd feel very safe leaving it as is. Love to hear how it turns out....
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Thanks for the replies. I was not that worried, but mostly curious that it was fuzzy. Likely all matter of good and bad molds. I will be giving a wipe of vinegar today.
It has lost almost a quarter of the weight it has to lose in about a week. I do notice that the texture of the meat is softer than the last batch that I hung in my crawlspace over the same timespan. Also, surprised how much water the dehumidifier has collected.
It has lost almost a quarter of the weight it has to lose in about a week. I do notice that the texture of the meat is softer than the last batch that I hung in my crawlspace over the same timespan. Also, surprised how much water the dehumidifier has collected.
So, here is an example of what I was speaking of. I will be cleaning off with some vinegar tonight. It has not gotten any worse on this piece or the other two. The outside is coated with red and black pepper.
- Feb 6, 2021
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Hmmm. I am not at all qualified to suggest anything further to you. My first Capicola will go into my curing chamber tomorrow. I will put mine in a beef bung and expect it to take two months to dry cure to completion. It concerns me a bit though that you've lost so much weight so fast. Perhaps that is a normal progression - fast early reduction followed by slow moisture loss in the final weeks. (?) On the other hand, it may be that you're running the humidity too low (which would explain the dehumidifier collecting so much water) or have too much air movement desiccating the meat. You might end up over-drying the exterior to the point that interior moisture can no longer evaporate through the outer dry ring - similar to what happens to salami. My dehumidifier has never kicked on at all when I run my chamber at 80% RH and 56 degrees F. Someone with more experience should be able to shed a bit more light on the situation. Good luck!
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Good points to consider. I had the controller at 68%, but the meat was bringing it up to 74% and then the unit would kick in. I did not measure the water, only to say that the reservois was maybe one third full. The oustside is not overly dry. Time will tell.
Another reason to use a casing....you can wipe off the mold and the seasoning will be underneath the casing.
I am thinking of trying that with next batch. I really wanted to try out the chamber, as it was exciting to get something in there. Do you use a natural casing? I was contemplating collagen sheets, but from what I have seen, is that they are fairly spendy.
I like natural casings for all my salami. I want to order a 4-4.5" diameter beef bung to make a large stick of Milano for sandwiches. I decided to try out the collagen sheets on the most recent coppas I have drying. Fairly easy to use, just have to wrap the top end flap first (so it will stay in place while sliding into netting, and then roll the sides around covering the top end flap, and finally fold over the bottom end.
I bought some netting. I've seen that collagen sheets work better with netting. I hand truss all my salamis.
I bought some netting. I've seen that collagen sheets work better with netting. I hand truss all my salamis.
- Feb 6, 2021
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I've been thinking about your cure a bit today. I'd guess your numbers are probably fine or close to it (no guarantees), but from what I've read, you sho uld be aiming at having the chamber at something like 90% for the first few days, then 85% for maybe another week, the work down to a low of 75% and 55 degrees or so for the remaining 5 - 6 weeks of curing. Don't quote me on numbers 'cause I'm working off the cuff. You can Google it and find references yourself. 25% weight loss is likely too much in a week, ( 25% in two weeks might be a bunch better) but I'd guess that if you raise the humidity in the chamber back up to 85 % or so, the meat should have a chance to equilibrate (slow down any further exterior moisture loss and allow the high moisture interior to catch up to the overly dry exterior) so that the interior moisture has a chance to evaporate it's way out of the meat in a more controlled situation. If the chamber has too little humidity, the exterior of the meat dries too fast and the interior moisture is unable to escape (by the book, though it sounds very reasonable).
I think Indaswamp's discussion of moisture loss/weight loss in salami in a different thread demonstrates that an initial rapid loss of weigh (water) gradually slows towards the end of the cure. If you graphed it, I'd guess it would expect that your cure might also be a L shaped curve - water % / Weight on the vertical axis and time on the horizontal axis. An early reduction in water/weight early on might be expected, then followed by a slowing of water/weight loss over the final 50% or so of the curing time. Google as many options/ideas as you can thing of and read a bit. If I was in your situation, I'd raise my chamber humidity to perhaps 85% for a week max then work my way back down to 75%, all at 55 - 60 degrees F. Again, none of this is based on personal experience, only my understanding of my readings. Other members who may have a few Coppa cures under their belt can likely give you better guidance. That's all I've got. Looking forward to final pictures!
I think Indaswamp's discussion of moisture loss/weight loss in salami in a different thread demonstrates that an initial rapid loss of weigh (water) gradually slows towards the end of the cure. If you graphed it, I'd guess it would expect that your cure might also be a L shaped curve - water % / Weight on the vertical axis and time on the horizontal axis. An early reduction in water/weight early on might be expected, then followed by a slowing of water/weight loss over the final 50% or so of the curing time. Google as many options/ideas as you can thing of and read a bit. If I was in your situation, I'd raise my chamber humidity to perhaps 85% for a week max then work my way back down to 75%, all at 55 - 60 degrees F. Again, none of this is based on personal experience, only my understanding of my readings. Other members who may have a few Coppa cures under their belt can likely give you better guidance. That's all I've got. Looking forward to final pictures!
- Feb 6, 2021
- 244
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Oh, I forgot. Check out beef bungs for Capicola casings. Butcher-Packer.com has them for about seven bucks or so (from memory.) Other websites seemed a bit more expensive. I've been a serious cheapskate throughout my life but I've finally learned that it is a hell of a lot easier to spend a couple bucks more on the perfect product rather than skimping and suffering through a lesser quality one. Anyways, one package is something like 22 inches of casing - enough to do two coppa cures. Cut it in half before using. I used a 3.5 - 4.0 inch casing and had no real problems fitting the meat in it. It is a bit of a wrestling match, but nothing serious.
Thanks for input guys. I set it initally at 68% because I knew it would spike up to 80 or so. Also way worried about condensation on the walls of chamber. This first run has been an eye opener, but thats half the fun.
It is drying way too fast! Should lose 9-11% first week. Your RH% is too low. the surface is drying faster than the inside.
- Feb 6, 2021
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Agreed. We have to expect some failures in the learning curve despite our best efforts. I will not be shocked at all when my first tries don't turn out quite right. I doubt that you're in serious trouble yet with your cure though.
RE: the Capicola: I keep reading up on this one. There are a lot of opinions on how to cure them, and if you watch the Italian version videos, they have a lot of variation as well, all without using curing chambers. In my mind, they should be expected to be kept in the 90% RH range for the first few days, then scaled back to 85% RH for another 5 - 7 days. Then curing chambers should be reduced to eventually maintain somewhere between 75% and 80% RH. There's no need to sweat high RHs early on. The meat will still lose water as long as the RH is lower than the moisture in the meat. At a setting of 85% RH in the curing chamber, I would guess the meat continues to loose weight for several weeks. Setting your RH too low too early on will likely lead to drying the exterior faster (something like case hardening) than the interior can move water outward to evaporate.
Having said all that, I reduced my RH to 80% today in my chamber - just 36 hours after putting the coppa in there. I've got a bunch of salami in there as well and I don't want them suffering in high humidity for the sake of the Coppa. I will keep it at this level for another week at least before lowering the RH down to 75%. I'm winging it - it's difficult to keep adding new meat to the chamber once it's been previously loaded with product weeks before. They all seem to need different environments so compromising settings seems necessary.
Keep us updated! Good luck!
I never lower my chamber to 75%RH. I run the RH% 5-6% higher than 75% because of the fast air flow during the cooling cycle. If I run my chamber at 75% I will get severe case hardening. YMMV...and may be different in non frost free units.
- Feb 6, 2021
- 244
- 93
Words of wisdom. Now I'm curious to see how mine turns out running at 75% (once I get there).
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