Total noob to curing

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gandrfab

Newbie
Original poster
Dec 16, 2020
20
2
Edgewater Fl
Started this on 12-10-20 about 7:pm
Goal is pink cured pork with no added seasoning.
Bought a 5lb pork loin.

Cut 2 lbs off and gently scrubbed in fresh water.
Boiled 2.5 quarts of water with 6.6 grams of Prague #1 let cool.
Placed 2 lb of pork with cooled water in zip lock bag in fridge.
Now we wait.
At the loins thickest section it is 3" thick.

I'm getting mixed calculations but leaning towards a 6 day cure.
Does that sound right?

As of last night.
The liquid has a tint to it but can tell the meat is pink on the outside.
The fat I left on it has turned white.

1stham.PNG
 
You might as well start over, because the heat will ruin the cure #1. It won’t cure properly. You need to add the cure to cold water & keep it cold. Also since it’s 3” thick it should be injected with the brine, and probably cured for 10-12 days. You also should have salt & sugar in the brine. Just use the search & search Pop’s brine.
Al
 
That's a bummer. I did add the Prague #1 to the water while it was hot.
The cure is not mineral?

Still inside the use by date on the original packaging. Still good to cook?
 
You can cook it, but it will just be a pork loin, it won’t be cured. I would either start over if you just did it yesterday, or take it out of the water & cook it now. I would not leave it in the fridge for 6 days.
Al
 
This is what I used to come up with what I have so far.


In the 1st calculator posted it doesn't seem clear if it's for calculation from the center to the edge of the thickest portion of the cut or from outside to outside of the thickest portion.
But the 2nd calculator seems to confirm it's for the outside to outside.

Prof. Blonder's Wet Curing Calculator Version 3.0
https://amazingribs.com/tested-recipes/salting-brining-curing-and-injecting/curing-meats-safely

Not using this recipe but rechecking the calculations with it.
https://amazingribs.com/tested-recipes/pork-recipes/smoked-canadian-bacon-recipe

and another calculator
https://genuineideas.com/ArticlesIndex/nitritecuringcalculator.html
 
If anything has been consistent in this adventure it has been inconsistency.
Please, forgive me for my frustration.
The who's right and who's wrong, which path to follow has become similar to a shouting match on a play ground in my head.
 
This is what I used to come up with what I have so far.


In the 1st calculator posted it doesn't seem clear if it's for calculation from the center to the edge of the thickest portion of the cut or from outside to outside of the thickest portion.
But the 2nd calculator seems to confirm it's for the outside to outside.

Prof. Blonder's Wet Curing Calculator Version 3.0
https://amazingribs.com/tested-recipes/salting-brining-curing-and-injecting/curing-meats-safely

Not using this recipe but rechecking the calculations with it.
https://amazingribs.com/tested-recipes/pork-recipes/smoked-canadian-bacon-recipe

and another calculator
https://genuineideas.com/ArticlesIndex/nitritecuringcalculator.html
If you want a wet brine check out pops brine here on. Smf , it's simple and works good.
 
Guys have you covered but will try and give some answers. Cure #1 is NOT a mineral it is a "salt" composed of 6.25% sodium nitrite and the rest is sodium chloride/salt. I do not think there is either definitive proof that boiling makes cure ineffective NOR that it is acceptable to boil it, so one should err on the side of caution and play it safe. Safety is always the #1 concern.

I never heard of curing meat until I joined here but now do it all the time and am making stuff I only dreamed of. If you want to learn, hang out here, and you will. I am proof of it.
 
I’ve always wondered why there is no warning on the label of curing salt #1 re it’s inability to withstand heat.
Cure #1 could be called a professional product, and there are a number of procedures that should be followed when using it. It is assumed that a professional has some degree of training in it's use.
Morton Salt's 'Tender Quick' on the other hand was designed more for home use, mainly because the curing salts are pre-measured, and because of the method used to suspend the nitrite and nitrate within the salt and sugar. These things alone take some of the error out of the equation. From the Morton Handbook: "...use water that has been previously boiled and allowed to cool, and mix Tender Quick with the water until it is dissolved"
If anything has been consistent in this adventure it has been inconsistency.
Please, forgive me for my frustration.
The who's right and who's wrong, which path to follow has become similar to a shouting match on a play ground in my head.
It's only beginning too. There are so many online resources that don't follow guidelines and procedures accurately. So it's best to learn from reliable sources, and verify everything. One of my pet peeves is watching someone in an online video cross contaminate things. Counter tops, cutting boards, bottles of rub, utensils, the handle on the refrigerator etc.
 
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Some basic cure info.

Salt Cures
Old recipes called for and old timers used salt petre or salt peter. This potassium based product is no longer available for general use and has been replaced by sodium based products - sodium nitrite (Cure 1) or sodium nitrite and sodium nitrate (Cure 2).

These cures are also known as:

Curing saltTinted curing powder (TCP)Prague powder 1 or 2 Modern cure
Tinted curing mixture (TCM) FLP Insta-cure 1 or 2 Pink curing salt

  • Cure # 1 is a basic cure that is used to cure all meats that require cooking, smoking, and canning. This would include poultry, fish, hams, bacon, luncheon meats, corned beef, pates, and many other products. Use when smoking or processing products at low temperatures. It is dyed pink so that it won't be mistaken for ordinary salt. It consists of 93.75% table salt and 6.25% sodium nitrate.
  • Cure # 2 is cure specifically formulated to be used for making dry cured products, such as pepperoni, hard salami, geonoa salami, proscuitti hams and dried farmers sausage. These are products that do not require cooking, smoking, or refrigeration. Cure #2 is sodium nitrate with a salt carrier. This cure acts as a time release, breaking down into sodium nitrite, then nitric oxide thus allowing for the much longer curing times required for these products, which can be up to 6 months. Dry curing meat or sausage properly cannot be done with Cure #1 which contains sodium nitrite only and dissipates too quickly.
  • Tip - Use 1 oz. per 25 lb. of ground meat. For smaller batches use 1 LEVEL TEASPOON per 5 lb. of meat. When adding cure # 1 as an ingredient for brines follow a recipe.
 
Guys have you covered but will try and give some answers. Cure #1 is NOT a mineral it is a "salt" composed of 6.25% sodium nitrite and the rest is sodium chloride/salt. I do not think there is either definitive proof that boiling makes cure ineffective NOR that it is acceptable to boil it, so one should err on the side of caution and play it safe. Safety is always the #1 concern.

I never heard of curing meat until I joined here but now do it all the time and am making stuff I only dreamed of. If you want to learn, hang out here, and you will. I am proof of it.
The reasoning I heard (and bear in mind this was 30+ years ago) was that simmering a curing brine with Cure #1 made the nitrates much more active and in essence caused them to burn out in a very short period of time. The opposite holds true if your curing refrigerator is too cold.... the curing process slows down below 34°
 
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Cure#1 is mixture of Sodium Chloride (NaCl) and Sodium Nitrite (NaNO2).
Both of these chemicals are satls.
Both of these chemicals are minerals.
Neither of these chemicals are damaged by boiling them in water.

I measured the stability of NaNO2 in boiling H2O and posted my lab report here:

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/thermal-stability-of-cure-1-–-kitchen-science-lab.291586/

But don't take my word for it. Look at thier respective thermochemical properties.
NaNO2 enthalpy of formation = -360kJ/mol

NaCl enthalpy of formation =
-411kJ/mol

Water enthalpy of vaporization = 40kJ/mol.

Conclusion: Water cannot boil at a temperature hot enough to transfer enough energy to break Na-N-O (or Na-Cl) bonds. Water turns to steam long before the NaNO2 and NaCl are damaged.
 
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Conclusion: Water cannot boil at a temperature hot enough to transfer enough energy to break Na-N-O (or Na-Cl) bonds. Water turns to steam long before the NaNO2 and NaCl are damaged.

Boy... I for one am glad you had the "Conclusion" at the bottom of the post. :emoji_nerd:

I snooped around in my library and only came up with vague references to heat and nitrites. It's entirely possible we are guilty of following instructions (in my case from decades ago) out of habit.
Marianski: "Sodium Nitrite works immediately and at refrigerator temperatures of 30° to 40°F. At higher temperatures it will work even faster".
Kutas: In talking about making sweet pickle formulations, all formulas have ice water listed, and instructions call for "all ingredients are dissolved in cold water"

Your experiments and examples in the other article are talking about breaking bonds. I'm curious if the performance of sodium nitrite can be affected by simmering or boiling, without actually breaking the chemical bonds?
 
I find it amusing, "Shoot the messenger" is the defense, in place of "Let me investigate" to find some technical data to support one or both, of the theories...
Curing meat to prevent the growth of botulism bacteria or spores, is the goal... Botulism is the deadliest bacteria known to man... Why not take the side, "I'm not sure which is correct but I'm going to err on the side of caution"....


I think it is a very good idea to NOT BOIL your pink salt or prague powder. The chemistry of meat cures is not terribly complex and it goes like this. Nitrate ions can be reduced to nitrite ion by fermentation bugs over time. The nitrite can be further reduced to nitric oxides which DO THE CURING by reacting with meat proteins like myoglobins to create the pick color. Using just a small amount of very reactive nitrite allows the cure to be much safer as the extra abundance of nitrate is not needed when using an insta cure made with nitrite. BUT nitrite can be oxidized back to nitrate so you want there to be enough to get the job done without exhausting them to zero before the cure completes. A reason to boil your salt, sugar brine is definitely to kill off as much bacteria and fungi as possible. Yes the spores can survive this boiling but only spores can survive boiling for any length of time including the tough to kill C, botulism spores. That is why canned foods with low acidity have added acids (green chilis etc) to keep the C. botulism from growing in the low acid media. Same for meat cures. Unless it ferments to make it a sour dry ferment, the added nitrites kills off the C. botulism bacteria that somehow survived as spores.

So Nitrates are very stable in solution and do not degrade from boiling although nitrates can be leached from meats and veg by boiling in water so the levels go down iin the meat or veg f you don't eat or drink the boiling liquids. Nitrites are less stable in solution and capable of being oxidized OR reduced. Reduction to nitric oxide in solution is the desired step to effect a meat cure but nitric oxide is REALLY UNSTABLE in liquids or as a gas. It is a super reactive short lived species (it will react with many molecules including proteins and fats) and also volatile so until it reacts with the meat it can also just outgas into the air or volatilize away as it is also a gas and a big component of smog etc.

Boiling the water kills good and bad bugs but not the spores from bugs quickly AND it helps dissolve the salts and sugar. Boil salts and sugar and then let it cool and THEN ADD your prague powder or instacure. The less nitrite you are using, the more important that the small amount used is really there and active. Commercial cures often require the use of sodium erythorbate which is a preservative on it's own and safe but ALSO acts a reducing agent to help reduce the small amount of nitrite to the super active nitric oxide curing species. So if you are using a ton of instacure or a mix of nitrite AND extra nitrate for a long cure, it doesn't much matter if you boil it first as you have a huge and unhealthy excess of nitrate to act as a reservoir but that isn't considered healthy or safe and may exceed FDA approved levels for nitrate. GO low nitrite without extra nitrate and be much more careful and still get a good safe cure is the way to go.

"Nothing to see here"..... "That story has been debunked".... seems to be the rallying cry today..
Unfortunately, I.Q. is something I think you are born with, and is difficult to change without having a curious nature....
 
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Prague Powder #1.... Also called Insta-Cure and Modern Cure. Cures are used to prevent meats from spoiling when being cooked or smoked at low temperatures (under 200 degrees F). This cure is 1-part sodium nitrite (6.25%) and 16 parts salt (93.75%) and are combined and crystallized to assure even distribution. As the meat temperate rises during processing, the sodium nitrite changes to nitric oxide and starts to ‘gas out’ at about 130 degrees F. After the smoking /cooking process is complete only about 10-20% of the original nitrite remains. As the product is stored and later reheated for consumption, the decline of nitrite continues. 4 ounces of Prague powder #1 is required to cure 100 lbs of meat. A more typical measurement for home use is 1 level tsp per 5 lbs of meat. Mix with cold water, then mix into meat like you would mix seasonings into meat.
 
As I learn this will get better, right?
This 2lb experiment isn't garbage yet?
Still inside the use by date that was on the packaging.

.
 
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