I have been making bread for about 25 years. When I started, I tried this, I tried that, and finally, I found the secret...oil! When we have family gatherings, Christmas, Thanksgiving, or just because, etc...I am usually asked to make bread. So, sometimes I use starter, and sometimes I don't. I started a starter and kept the same batch going for about 10 years. Finally killed 'er off, and started a new one. Won't get into why...if yall can tell me how to attach a file, I have a write up that is helpful. My niece started making bread, and after Thanksgiving, she wanted to know how to do it. So I wrote it down, and am happy to share.