PID sale?

[tallbm]

I can wire up my own 220 outlet with GFCI double pole breaker to be right next to the man-door leading to the deck where we do the smoking. So I could buy, but may well build my own 220V - powered larger smoker at some point.

But I'd be curious to hear your reviews of your pellet burner and your 220V smoker.

The pre-built Pit Boss pellet burner I saw impressed me for its size, shape, upper temperature ability, and adjustable shelves.

I am tempted to buy one and try it out as designed by the manufacturer and see what I think.

Because it heats by combustion, it could produce the smoke ring style results associated with burning wood as the heat source, and with the temperature control that a microprocessor controlling the pellet feed and combustion blower can give me.

So that is intriguing.

And if I don't like the way it works as designed, it seems like a good "carcass" to start with to add a high-wattage electric element, the AMNPS, and use my PAC system to control it all.

Or I could keep it as a pellet burner but improve (if necessary) the control of the blower and the pellet feeder.

The hobbyist smoker nerd toy potential is fantastic!

Hey Sigmo have you checked out the PitBoss 3 Series Analog and Digital smokers? They have 1650W elements and can get up to 350F with their insulation, etc. (according to the marketing info on the website).
https://pitboss-grills.com/Shop-Pit-Boss/Grills/vertical-smokers

The analog is only $206! That guy is begging for a PID and since it can handle 350F it covers basically all smoking applications.

WSD-1500H-W is on sale now for 10 bucks off. 249.99

Ooh nice! I guess they do get discounted sometimes but not by much hahahha.

 

[JC in GB]

Hi there and welcome!
Cool little unit, I just looked it up. Does it have a heat sink built in as well?
[/QUOTE]

If it is relay output, why would you need a heat sink?

 

[tallbm]

Hi there and welcome!
Cool little unit, I just looked it up. Does it have a heat sink built in as well?

If it is relay output, why would you need a heat sink?

I'm by no means an expert in this area but my understanding is that it would likely use a Solid State Relay(SSR) vs a simpler relay since simple relays might get hammered and worn out quickly where an SSR is built to handle such a situation.

The 30A SSR units I have seen all seem to require having a heat sink to keep them from overheating.

Again I'm not some export or work with these things all the time but that is my understanding and what I have seen with PID units and the parts we are discussing :)

 

[JC in GB]

You are correct an SSR would need a heat sink. A mechanical relay would not. I didn't know that was an SSR output on that unit.

 

[Wakulla]

I have one. It works for now. Don't even know what a heat sink is and don't know if it has one

Anyone care to educate me. Smoker is pulling less than 10 amps off a 30 amp relay so what does that mean

 

[JC in GB]

I have one. It works for now. Don't even know what a heat sink is and don't know if it has one

Anyone care to educate me. Smoker is pulling less than 10 amps off a 30 amp relay so what does that mean

A heat sink protects silicon switches from heat damage during operation. Mechanical relays don't generally need heat sinks because of the low resistance of the contacts. An SSR will heat each time it is turned on and off and somewhat more while running a continuous load. This heat increases with current. An off the shelf controller with an SSR output rated for 30 amps should need no external heatsink. If the controller output only drives an SSR then you would need an SSR and heatsink. I hope I have explained this properly.

 

[Wakulla]

So if i understand you right since the relay is built into the controller then it doesn't need a heat sink but had i bought one separately that was controlled by the pid then it would need a heat sink?

 

[JC in GB]

So if i understand you right since the relay is built into the controller then it doesn't need a heat sink but had i bought one separately that was controlled by the pid then it would need a heat sink?

Yes.

 

[JC in GB]

Okay I went and looked at your controller specs. You will be fine running 30 A at 120VAC with no heatsink. In other words, you're golden.

 

[Wakulla]

Great

So much for dumb luck

 

[Wakulla]

You know i still would like to know what a heat sink is and how they are installed

 

[sigmo]

As i expected parts are really cheap. Just wonder if some are better than others. From what i have read pid's are very simple electronics. Sure is fun figuring all this stuff out. Who knew barbeque could be so much fun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller

A PID controller can appear simple from the user's point of view.

But the various tasks it performs are rather complex and involved when you get into the design of the temperature measurement parts and the program that implements the PID control as well.

So we're fortunate that large demand and mass manufacturing allow us to buy theses gadgets so cheaply. Often most of the work is done by a single integrated circuit, so things appear simple. But deep inside, it's a different story.

And less expensive controllers may cut costs by failing to do the temperature measurement as well as we might like or taking other shortcuts. But usually, they work rather well!

Well if you need bigger then the fast Eddie 240 is for you.

Or for electric the cookshack amerique might be just the ticket.

I don't think I need one as big as even the Amerique! But they do look pretty nice!!! :)

Hey Sigmo have you checked out the PitBoss 3 Series Analog and Digital smokers? They have 1650W elements and can get up to 350F with their insulation, etc. (according to the marketing info on the website).
https://pitboss-grills.com/Shop-Pit-Boss/Grills/vertical-smokers

The analog is only $206! That guy is begging for a PID and since it can handle 350F it covers basically all smoking applications.

I was looking at those, and you're right, I'd just get the analog unit since I'd be controlling it with an external gadget, anyhow.

The thing is, they're about the same size as the MES40 I already have, and it's working fine. My reason for looking at a new unit was the size of that Pit Boss 5 series. And those adjustable shelf holders in the 5 really looked like they'd be handy. It's considerably bigger than my MES 40, but not too big. It really was the Goldilocks "just right" size. :)

You know i still would like to know what a heat sink is and how they are installed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_sink

If you're looking to keep a solid state relay cool, there will be some calculations required to figure out exactly what you need to do.

But the basic idea is that the solid state relay contains a pair of SCRs, or a single TRIAC. Those devices are not 100% efficient at conducting current when they're in their "ON State". There is always a small voltage drop across the device. With back-to-back SCRs, the voltage drop is fairly low, usually around 1 volt. With a TRIAC, the voltage drop can be higher, perhaps 3 volts.

Now that doesn't sound like much, but let's say we're powering an 1800 Watt heating element that runs on 120VAC. To get 1800 Watts at 120VAC, the heater will draw 15 Amps.

Now just to be "worst case", let's say your SSR uses a TRIAC, and that TRIAC is dropping 3 Volts when in the "ON State" (yes, that's probably a high estimate, but whatever!)

Since power is voltage times current, we have 3 Volts times 15 Amps, and that's 45 Watts.

If we do not use a heat sink, that SSR will get very hot in a real hurry. 45 Watts doesn't sound like a lot, but it really is a lot of heat when confined to a small device. And if that device has no way to get rid of that heat, it will get very hot. Hot enough to destroy itself.

And the manufacturers of most solid state relays design them with the idea that they will be used with a heat sink. They're not able to operate at their rated current unless they're properly attached to a correctly sized heat sink.

So we almost always need a heat sink to conduct that heat away from the SSR and transfer it to the atmosphere to keep the SSR at a safe temperature.

The Wikipedia article describes how that works.

Different SSRs have different styles of heat spreaders and mounting arrangements. But the basic idea is that you want to mount the SSR to a heat sink in such a way that the heat can flow easily from the SSR's heat spreader to the heat sink.

Usually, we use a thermally-conductive grease between the heat spreader of the SSR and the surface of the heat sink. That grease fills in the microscopic pores and roughness of the two surfaces, and allows heat to flow across the gaps. This can improve the heat transfer a lot!

There are curves and formulas on the heat sink manufacturers' websites and in their databooks to let you calculate how large of a heat sink you will need to keep a device at a certain temperature given various power levels, ambient temperatures, elevation above sea level, air flow conditions, mounting orientation, etc.

Always remember that it doesn't do you any good to put a heat sink on an SSR if that whole thing is then installed inside of a tight enclosure with no air flow. The idea is to get rid of that heat.

Often, you'll see heat sinks mounted to the outsides of enclosures with their fins exposed for good heat transfer to the outside world. The semiconductor device is then mounted to the inside side of the heat sink so it's protected but able to dump its heat out to the outside world via that heat sink.

 

[tallbm]

You are correct an SSR would need a heat sink. A mechanical relay would not. I didn't know that was an SSR output on that unit.

I didn't dig into the specs to see if it was an SSR or a regular mechanical relay on that unit.
My understanding of regular mechanical relays is that they won't fair to well with being switched on/off at faster or higher rates. In those cases an SSR is needed.

I mention this because (I believe) my HeaterMeter PID would be sending signal for the relay to switch off and on a lot so I imagine I would wear out a mechanical relay very quickly where the SSR will have no problems.

Now the PID that has the relay built in could take measures to not overwork the relay. Heck the MES uses a relay and I think part of the design that causes such large swings is to prevent fast/heavy switching from occuring with the relay they use. The MES switches on for a long period to heat and then switches off for a long period to cool, hence the swings and a safe relay :)

 

[sigmo]

Mechanical relays often have a guaranteed life span of 10 million operations or so. And this life can be even lower when they're asked to switch a heavy load.

Sounds like a lot until you calculate how quickly that might happen if the relay is being run by a PID control set to a cycle period of, say, one second.

A SSR becomes a necessity for fast cycle time operation. But you could set up a much longer cycle time for your PID and still get away with a mechanical relay if you really preferred one.

Another reason the MESs cycle their heaters so slowly is that in order to get their original chip burners to make the chips smoke, they have to get the heating element red hot. And when we run their heater with a rapidly-cycling PID, the element runs at a constant lower temperature once the smoker itself comes up to temperature.

So while you might get smoke at start-up, once your smoker was up to temperature, you'd get no more smoke.

This is the main reason that we need an alternate smoke source (like an AMNPS) if we convert a MES to PID temperature control.

You can't have fast heater cycling and also use the original smoke chip burner system.

Without a separate pellet burner, the MES must cycle its heating element on for long enough periods to assure that the element will get the chips smoldering periodically. So as designed, they're doomed to require large temperature swings.

If the average temperature of the smoker can be maintained at our desired setting, the large swings really aren't a problem. But without a temperature logging system that lets us see the temperatures graphically, and calculate the true average temperature, it's hard for people to have confidence in their smoker's temperature control.

Just checking the temperature occasionally, we can end up seeing "snapshots" of what the controller is achieving. So that's one reason for people's unhappiness with the original temperature controls in the MESs.

The average user might get good cooking results and not be aware of the cycling at all. The displays on the MESs may be designed to show the average temperature and not the instantaneous value, so as to show the "effective" temperature and not worry the user.

Then, us nerds compare our fancy temperature probes to what the MES indicates, we get overly concerned. :)

Still, I prefer a separate smoke generator (like my AMNPS). And I prefer smooth temperature control like a PID controller can give.

I just like having independent control over temperature and smoke. I don't like the idea of having the smoke only be generated when the heater is on full blast. And I don't like having the temperature of the smoker cycle so much just because that's required to get any smoke.

 

[JC in GB]

I agree with what Sigmo has presented here. An SSR will switch better for rapid switching than a mechanical relay. Temperature controls using mechanical contacts usually have a good deal of hysteresis engineered in to prevent rapid switching of the contacts.

As far as resources for getting this stuff, I have had great luck with aliexpress for electronic components and assemblies.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4-I...65-4ba0-8686-2f9ec53902fb&transAbTest=ae803_5

 

[$mok!ng]

I didn't realize how bad the temperature swing were in my smoker. I just bought an inkbird IBT-4XP and was able to monitor my cook better, and the ap allows me to view the temp for the duration of the cook. I set alarm to notify my when my smoker dropped below 215 and went above 240. I set the smoker to 225 and was getting alarms every 15 minutes, as my smoker temp dropped below 215. I had no idea the temperature swings were that bad. Also it seems like the thermometer in the masterbuilt smokers has a bit of a delay (possibly causes the large swings). This is further reason to look into the aftermarket PID's. Again with the Auber I don't expect to utilize it to its fullest potential. Its like buying the top of the line computer to play solitaire.

 

[tallbm]

I didn't realize how bad the temperature swing were in my smoker. I just bought an inkbird IBT-4XP and was able to monitor my cook better, and the ap allows me to view the temp for the duration of the cook. I set alarm to notify my when my smoker dropped below 215 and went above 240. I set the smoker to 225 and was getting alarms every 15 minutes, as my smoker temp dropped below 215. I had no idea the temperature swings were that bad. Also it seems like the thermometer in the masterbuilt smokers has a bit of a delay (possibly causes the large swings). This is further reason to look into the aftermarket PID's. Again with the Auber I don't expect to utilize it to its fullest potential. Its like buying the top of the line computer to play solitaire.

Yeah the swings can be funny. I didn't want to chance fat out after spending 12-14hours a day for 5-6 days processing all my wild game into sausage just for it to get ruined by temp swings. I also didn't want any limitations to prevent me from smoking basically anything I wanted to smoke. With the PID and the AMNPS I can smoke low for jerky, sausage, bacon. Hot for briskets at a true 275F and super fast but hot poultry smokes at 325F (I swapped my safety limit switch with a higher limit one to do this for those quick cooks).

 

[sigmo]

That really is a good point about the large temperature swings perhaps wrecking sausage and the like due to the overly-high temperatures at the peaks of the swings.

The chip-burner system in the MESs really does require that they put the power to the heater long and strong every so often to get some smoke from the chips. And that really is far from ideal.

Using a separate smoke generating setup frees us to set up the temperature control to behave the way we really want it to.

 

[sigmo]

I just put a nice tenderloin, that I cut, seasoned, vacuum packed, and froze six months ago, into a big pot with a sous vide recirculating heater/controller so my wife and I can have some of the best steak we've ever had later this evening.

I realize that's off topic for this thread. But it has some relevance.

I've seen a few folks in this thread mention that they use their Auber (or other brand) PID controller to run some other heated water bath gadget to use it for a sous vide system. That's well and good, but I have a recommendation.

Having worked for 40 years designing temperature control and data acquisition systems, I've done a lot of hands-on measurement of various temperature-controlled gadgets. And one thing has been made very clear to me. A STIRRED water bath is the most uniform and temperature-stable system you are ever likely to find. And furthermore, a STIRRED water bath transfers heat to its contents faster and more uniformly than pretty much any other system you will run across.

So while a crock pot or deep fryer, or whatever may well work as a sous vide system when paired with a good PID controller, if you're not actively stirring the water in the bath, you are missing out on one of the key components of a uniform temperature control system.

You need to have a motorized stirrer. Believe me, it makes a huge difference in uniformity. Stratification and dead zones happen all too easily in any temperature-controlled system. Stirring eliminates that problem.

So if you're gonna sous vide: Use a stirrer.

And that brings me to this:

Excellent dedicated sous vide immersion circulators that incorporate a stirrer, heater, and PID controller all into one inexpensive small gadget are readily available.

As much as I like the idea of getting multiple benefits from a PID controller, I have to recommend getting a separate immersion circulator sous vide gadget. They work great and are really convenient.

Besides, sometimes I sous vide while I'm also smoking! You can get a good sous vide immersion circulator for around a hundred bucks.

You're gonna love having one.

My wife and I went to Vegas for pretty much the sole purpose of eating at some fancy restaurants. We ate at Ruth's Chris, The Stratosphere, etc., and had Kobe beef steaks and other great meals.

But I'm not kidding or exaggerating when I tell you all that the tenderloin steaks we cut from lions we buy at Sam's Club, season, vac pack, freeze, and then cook in the sous vide, finishing simply by searing in butter in a hot skillet are the best steaks we've ever had. Bar none!

And it's such a simple meal to prepare. It's so forgiving, and always perfect.

Anyhow. Sous Vide, baby! And get an immersion circulator. Use the PID controller on your smoker. It's worth it just for that purpose alone. :)

 

[BuckeyeSteve]

I'm looking at this Inkbird for my MES 30. Will this work?