Meat vs Meat Substitute, Your Viewpoint ~ Foamheart

[SmokinAl]

I guess I'm the exception, I eat a Morningstar original griller almost every day for lunch. I like them as much as a real burger. Although I do have a bunch of ground brisket burgers in the freezer for when we have guests over for a BBQ!
Or on the weekend when Judy & I want a greasy bacon cheese burger!
Al

 

[foamheart]

Great discussion guys. I wish you could have read the almost linked thread on it. But you pretty much got the idea.

First, what started it all is the Louisiana as of August 1st enacted an new law that you can NOT call any product whatever you want to call it. I don't know if its proof of advertizing or a USDA or FDA but we went thru this all before with the Chinese crawfish. BUT veggie burgers will be called veggie burgers and contain a listing of all the contents. No one is worried yet about a veggie brisket, but someday we might get there. Then I would hope they would call it a veggie roast similar to a brisket.

I believe in truth in advertising, and it was very evident to me why in JC's first post. I had to read it 3 times, each continuously slower to finally understand what he was saying. That may be because my glasses need renewing or my mind is slower than it once was, but for whatever reason the simple word meat did not register in my mind to what he was saying. Then I had to figure out what was really meat and what was really meat substitute.

I don't care what they call it really as long as I can readily identify what it really is. You want to call it meat, its not, its a meat substitute. If we are not all on the same page as to identification of the product, lots of room there for error.

As a young man I starting thinking this way, if you didn't allow smoke in your house (cigarette), I respected your wishes, but then it was my decision if I really wanted to be there. I was never disrespectful about it, I just would politely decline when asked. I respected their wishes, they should respect mine. If one way can achieve everyone's needs why would the other need to change the rules simply to please them.

I have nothing against soy patties, Lord knows I eaten my share, but I always knew what they were thereby allowing me the choice of what I was going to eat.

The new law took affect last Thursday and the federal veggie lobby was screaming all the the way.

 

[daveomak]

Here you go....

Food Standards and Labeling


.......

 

[foamheart]

Here you go....

Food Standards and Labeling


.......

This is a New Louisiana State law. Seems all the laws these days are State enacted. The Feds forgot how to barter and get things done.

 

[gmc2003]

I can completely understand the Louisiana Agricultural & Forestry Commissioners viewpoint. I also understand where it comes from. Years ago when the Chinese showed up selling their crawfish using Louisiana packaging names to intentionally misdirect the consumer i.e. "Boudreaux's Crawfish". The Louisiana crawfish farmers took offense because the Chinese crayfish were a cheaper but also less appealing (larger and much much tuffer). When the packaging was challenged in court they changed it in small print, and started packaging the crawfish offshore Louisiana in their processing ships to comply with the new packaging requirements. Which also alleviated the import taxes and tariffs. Now after years of education most folks have tried both and understand the difference. But its taken 30 years to get that way and some creative changes by domestic producers to stay competitive.

Vermont is the same way with the "Made in Vermont" or "Vermont <insert item name here>" label. Especially when it comes to Maple syrup and cheese.

Chris

 

[chopsaw]

This is a New Louisiana State law.

Missouri did the same . It's about what you are eating . Cost of raising and processing animals compared to lab grown plant based material . If it didn't come from animal flesh you can't call it meat in Missouri .

 

[Bearcarver]

I have Zero Problems with Imitation Meat, as long as they put the ingredients, in English, on the outside of the package.
However, if they expect me to eat it, they better come up with something that tastes better than Tofu (Garbage!).
If they can come up with an imitation Meat that tastes better than Prime Rib, that is labeled with the ingredients, and safe to eat, for no more $$$, I'd be all over it.

Bear

 

[chef jimmyj]

bbqbrett Not sure that is correct. In more than one federal law meat actually has a legal definition.

And Whom established the definitions???

Standards of Identity for Food Products
The Food Drug and Cosmetic Act (FDCA) directs the FDA to establish definitions and standards for food, see 21 U.S.C. §341.

• Paraphrased, the statute states: in an effort to promote honesty and fair dealing for the benefit of consumers, the FDA is authorized to establish by regulation, a common or usual name, a reasonable definition and standard of identity, a reasonable standard of quality, and reasonable standards of fill of the container for any food.

The statute also defines a food as misbranded if there is a standard of identity in the regulation but the food item does not conform to the definition or standard of identity (21 U.S.C. §343(g)).

Yes, the second paragraph basically says, if there is an established identity, Meat in this case, calling something that does not fit the definition, exactly, is Misbranding and must stop...BUT...It's a Circle. The FDA established the definitions above. The FDA has the power to Change the definition or Toss it completely and rewrite it anyway they wish, or, were " Influenced " to.
The Fed does this kind of thing all the time! There is a Vote to put a Cap on Spending.
Special Interest Groups provide an " Incentive " to fund X,Y and Z Projects...
POOF ! A vote is held and eventually passed, to Lift the Spending Cap!!!

The USDA Guidelines. Dave posted apply as they are based on FDA Regs. The USDA Book outlines the Meat Labeling Rules in a much simpler version than the Labeling Rules posted by the FDA. From the Preface...

PREFACE
The Policy Book is intended to be guidance to help manufacturers and prepare product labels that are truthful and not misleading. Compliance with the requirements set forth in this publication does not, in itself, guarantee an authorization.

The FDA has sole authority to approve or reject Food Labels. The approval process is a huge PITA and it is worth paying a Professional to design your label for a New Product! Been there and gave up...
Be that as it may, the last line of the USDA Introduction is ALL TELLING...
They are subject to change and therefore a periodic updating of this book will take place.

My previous post Over Simplified what could happen. But, the fact remains, IF the Fed wants to change the definition of Meat to include Lab Grown Franken Meat, whether sourced from veggies or animal DNA, they have the power to do it...JJ

 

[martin1950]

I'm sorry but I'm too old school. Meat has had blood running through it and almonds don't give milk.

 

[bbqbrett]

bbqbrett Not sure that is correct. In more than one federal law meat actually has a legal definition.

And Whom established the definitions???

Standards of Identity for Food Products
The Food Drug and Cosmetic Act (FDCA) directs the FDA to establish definitions and standards for food, see 21 U.S.C. §341.

• Paraphrased, the statute states: in an effort to promote honesty and fair dealing for the benefit of consumers, the FDA is authorized to establish by regulation, a common or usual name, a reasonable definition and standard of identity, a reasonable standard of quality, and reasonable standards of fill of the container for any food.

The statute also defines a food as misbranded if there is a standard of identity in the regulation but the food item does not conform to the definition or standard of identity (21 U.S.C. §343(g)).

Yes, the second paragraph basically says, if there is an established identity, Meat in this case, calling something that does not fit the definition, exactly, is Misbranding and must stop...BUT...It's a Circle. The FDA established the definitions above. The FDA has the power to Change the definition or Toss it completely and rewrite it anyway they wish, or, were " Influenced " to.
The Fed does this kind of thing all the time! There is a Vote to put a Cap on Spending.
Special Interest Groups provide an " Incentive " to fund X,Y and Z Projects...
POOF ! A vote is held and eventually passed, to Lift the Spending Cap!!!

The USDA Guidelines. Dave posted apply as they are based on FDA Regs. The USDA Book outlines the Meat Labeling Rules in a much simpler version than the Labeling Rules posted by the FDA. From the Preface...

PREFACE
The Policy Book is intended to be guidance to help manufacturers and prepare product labels that are truthful and not misleading. Compliance with the requirements set forth in this publication does not, in itself, guarantee an authorization.

The FDA has sole authority to approve or reject Food Labels. The approval process is a huge PITA and it is worth paying a Professional to design your label for a New Product! Been there and gave up...
Be that as it may, the last line of the USDA Introduction is ALL TELLING...
They are subject to change and therefore a periodic updating of this book will take place.

My previous post Over Simplified what could happen. But, the fact remains, IF the Fed wants to change the definition of Meat to include Lab Grown Franken Meat, whether sourced from veggies or animal DNA, they have the power to do it...JJ

To simplify things and make a long story short the FDA did not come up with the definition of meat. It was defined by the USDA. And in the US the Dept of Ag regulates meat not the FDA---from the USDA website:

The Food Safety and Inspection Service is the U.S. Department of Agriculture's public health regulatory agency that protects consumers by ensuring that meat, poultry and egg products are safe, wholesome, and accurately labeled. A substantial amount of imported meat and poultry products are available to American consumers.

In the United States, FSIS regulates meat, poultry and egg products. However, all remaining foods are regulated by the Department of Health and Human Service's Food and Drug Administration (FDA). As such, there are different import requirements for different types of imported food.

 

[chef jimmyj]

Thanks...I learned something new. Actually, Re-learned. Now that I think about it , it's sounding familiar. Tough gettin old and remembering fine details...JJ

 

[bbqbrett]

Thanks...I learned something new. Actually, Re-learned. Now that I think about it , it's sounding familiar. Tough gettin old and remembering fine details...JJ

When it comes to government stuff like that though it is crazy. I have heard it a few times myself. I went to school with quite a few people who raised cattle and were FFA members etc. and heard it way back then.

I also remember really hearing a lot of debate about it quite a while back. Lots of cattle (and other meat producers) people were upset as they thought veggie burgers should not be allowed to called burgers as it was a meat product. At the time I worked in a building that had USDA offices in it and saw some of the people who worked there and what they thought about it and was told that it could be called a burger as that referred to the patty shape and not what it contains but that it had to be clearly labeled that it was not meat. Not sure why but for some reason that weird bit of info stuck with me.

 

[foamheart]

If I remember correctly this whole discussion actually formed from a Burger King commercial where they were in the process of introducing a flame broiled veggie burger, which when tested by taste experts was just as good as a Xerox or better. Again I have no problem with it as long as its spelled out its a meat substitute.

It just seems to me that everyone these days wants to change the rules of old established norms under the pretense that what difference does it make. Obviously it does make a difference going by the general consensus of this thread. Of course this is a Smoking "Meat" forum. LOL

 

[drdon]

Don't care if "They" want something different. Just DON"T change my stuff!

 

[GaryHibbert]

It just seems to me that everyone these days wants to change the rules of old established norms under the pretense that what difference does it make. Obviously it does make a difference going by the general consensus of this thread. Of course this is a Smoking "Meat" forum. LOL

I was wondering if anybody was going to bring that up, Kev. What's gonna be next?? Posts on smoking a turnip and asperigus "pork tenderloin"?? LOL
Gary