Introduciton, a little history and first post.

[sea2ski]

Hello everyone!

1 year occasional lurker and first time poster here. Let me introduce myself...

My grandfather came over and was a true butcher. I remember seeing full animals hanging as he parted them out into different cuts. He had his own store in Philadelphia till he passed in 1993. My father would work as a butcher after his 7-3 job as I grew up, and I often went with him to work in my grandfathers store on Saturdays. This was the foundation to what has feed my passion to procure, cook and eat good food.

Fast forward a few.. okay, many years. I bought my house on the property of my dreams, and a few years ago I got everything the way I wanted to allow me to do the things I want to do in my "free" time. Cooking more and more complex meals as well as procuring local food has been my primary focus over this time. I have a couple of big green eggs, my fathers old ToledoOhio meat grinder with which I make kielbasa and many other fresh sausages a few times a year by weighing the meat and spices on his original ToledoOhio scale. I have a decent 10" meat slicer and every grinding plate size that will fit the grinder.  In other words, I have all the toys I need to call this more than just a hobby. But one type of cooking has been missing from my skill set, and I plan to change that.

I have been thinking about getting into curing meats and making fermented sausages for about 2 years now. Just recently I obtained 3 very high quality refrigerators at an insanely low price. They just fell into my lap. This has been the catalyst and the step (or leap) over the threshold to get me started. One fridge replaced an inefficient beverage fridge in the garage which will keep me hydrated, and the other two have been cleaned very thoroughly twice and 100% dedicated to curing meats as I do not have a good natural environment for fermenting or curing anywhere else in the house. While these two refrigerators are all clean and running, they are currently empty. This will be changing this Sunday.

I currently have 12 lbs of pork belly that will start curing for bacon (full disclosure - I have made bacon a few times), a full eye roast from the round which I trimmed up all nicely tonight for bresola, and a full pork loin which will start curing as well for lonzino.

I have read a few books, and I have done a lot of research on the web, but we all know you have to take it all with a grain of salt. This is why I joined SMF. It seems like there are several here who really have a lot of experience in doing this. I would like to learn as much as I can from you, as well as bounce ideas I have off you if you are willing to teach.

So my plan for my first bresola is to follow Jason Molinari's recipe with a slight change. I will be soaking the muscle in red wine for 3 days prior to the cure for a added layer of flavor. The recipe I found is below. I assume this is a common first recipe for many people? Because I have this impression, I believe it is sound.

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Ingredient	% of Meat
Eye of round	100%
Salt ( Kosher)	3.5%
Sugar	1%
Black pepper	0.5%
Fresh rosemary	0.25%
Juniper berries	0.1%
Dry thyme	0.1%
Cinnamon	0.05%
Clove	0.025%
Cure #2	0.33%

I am not sure what the lonzino recipe is going to be yet. I am thinking something along the line of my bacon recipe, but may add some cayenne to it as well for some bite. I am open to any suggestions.

I will update this thread as I begin and progress on this new adventure...

 

[SmokinAl]

Welcome to SMF!

Looking forward to seeing your work!

Al

 

[sea2ski]

I started my Bresola. Here was the meat trimmed:

IMG_2753.JPG

• sea2ski
• Feb 27, 2017

The seasonings weighed to the 1/10 of a gram:

IMG_2754.JPG

• sea2ski
• Feb 27, 2017

And here it is dusted befor vac sealing in a bag:

IMG_2756.JPG

• sea2ski
• Feb 27, 2017

Did the same thing for the Lomo (I actually did two separate ones:

IMG_2762.JPG

• sea2ski
• Feb 27, 2017

IMG_2763.JPG

• sea2ski
• Feb 27, 2017

IMG_2761.JPG

• sea2ski
• Feb 27, 2017

I have a fridge the I have two separate inkbird humidity/temp controllers. One will control the upper ranges by turning on the fridge and dehumidifier and the other will operate the humidifier and a small heat source (tbd).
Once cured, I plan to keep the fridge between 68F and a low humidity of 70% and a high range of 73F with 75% humidity and hang the meat there to dry after spraying it, and the entire fridge with mold 600.

Question: with such temp and humidity control, should I still put them in a casing or bag? Not having someone here in person to verify if things are going well or to hand hold me, I am really hoping for the best advice to come from some experienced people for first time success.

 

[sea2ski]

Well, I reviewed everything, and I believe I have come to the realization and conclusion that I will need to basically start all over. In my own lack of double checking and the fact I have only used Cure #1 (Pink salt), instead of #2. (Slapping head over and over...)

I believe I am fine with my pork loin as it will be "Canadian bacon".  But the beef eye round I believe is wasted. If I caught this Sunday night, I might have just rinsed them really well and a good soak and re-season, but something clicked in my head tonight, and I realized what I did.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I am looking for help here. Live and Learn I guess.....  I just hate to waste any meat. It kills me.

 

[daveomak]

On the beef, in a week or so, rub in cure #2 at 1 tsp. per 5#'s of meat or 1.1 grams per pound...    let it sit in the refer for another week or so...  

Cure #1 is 6.25% nitrite...    Cure #2 is nitrite and nitrate...  the additional nitrite will dissipate over time...   the nitrate will continue to protect the meat for months...  in 4 weeks or so, as the meat ages, supposedly the nitrite will have dissipated to negligible...   by the end of the curing process, supposedly, the only nitrite left in the meat will be that which has been generated by internal meat bacteria...

I could be wrong but, everything I have read suggests what I have posted...

Cure2.jpg

• daveomak
• Mar 1, 2017

 

[wild west]

It's certainly not wasted meat... just a mistake. I would leave it in the cure for 10 to 14 days and then smoke it for dried beef useing Bears method (yours would be ready for the smoking stage of the recipe at that point) or after cureing slice and reseason it and make jerky. I can't make any educated comments on Dave's suggestion I don't know alot on cure#2

 

[sea2ski]

@DaveOmak, First of all, thank you very much for responding. I really do appreciate it.

My Mind is flip-flopping on me after reading your response, which again, I think you for. Maybe you can help me settle on which of my two thoughts are correct. (Or anyone else reading this as well)...

One side of me is saying that if I do what you said, the only thing different that is done the way you are suggesting is that I am extending the initial wet curing time before drying time. I can buy that.  Using my common sense, this is reasonable and acceptable.

The other side of me has a single concern. I used .33% by weight of nitrite with my mistake of using Cure#1, and if I do as you say, I am using as much nitrite a second time as I would have needed if I did it correctly at the beginning which means I am really using twice as much as needed. Right?  If so, would I then be using too much and getting into dangerous level territory? Should I be concerned about this?

This is all fascinating to me. People have been curing meats for hundreds and hundreds of years, yet it is somewhat difficult to find consistent information on the practice.  At least I have had a hard time.

Maybe I will just end up doing as @wild west suggested.....  I do not know, I have not made up my mind.

Thanks again to the both of you.

 

[pc farmer]

Cure #1 and #2 should be used at .25% of the meat.

I wouldn't toss the beef.   Let it cure for a week then hot smoke it, slice thin for sammies.

 

[daveomak]

 
@DaveOmak, First of all, thank you very much for responding. I really do appreciate it.

My Mind is flip-flopping on me after reading your response, which again, I think you for. Maybe you can help me settle on which of my two thoughts are correct. (Or anyone else reading this as well)...

One side of me is saying that if I do what you said, the only thing different that is done the way you are suggesting is that I am extending the initial wet curing time before drying time. I can buy that.  Using my common sense, this is reasonable and acceptable.

The other side of me has a single concern. I used .33% by weight of nitrite with my mistake of using Cure#1, and if I do as you say, I am using as much nitrite a second time as I would have needed if I did it correctly at the beginning which means I am really using twice as much as needed. Right?  If so, would I then be using too much and getting into dangerous level territory? Should I be concerned about this?

This is all fascinating to me. People have been curing meats for hundreds and hundreds of years, yet it is somewhat difficult to find consistent information on the practice.  At least I have had a hard time.

Maybe I will just end up doing as @wild west suggested.....  I do not know, I have not made up my mind.

Thanks again to the both of you.

  Nitrite dissipates / degrades over time...  You can safely apply up to 625 Ppm nitrite to a hunk of meat that will be dried over an extended period of time....  

From Marianski's web site....

It is not expected that an Eskimo will cure seal or whale meat with nitrites. They would rather pound their meat pieces until thin, and dry them in windy and cold conditions that most of us will find impossible to duplicate. It also goes without saying that it takes longer to remove moisture from the inside of a 18 lb. ham than a 2 oz. strip of meat. More Nitrate can be safely applied to a meat that will dry for a year as the Nitrates dissipate slowly in time. For this reason you can apply 625 ppm of sodium nitrite to a dry product and only 156 ppm to a regular smoked sausage. The salt is applied at around 6% to a country ham which needs plenty of protection, about 3% for a dry fermented sausage, 2.5% for semi-dry fermented sausage and only 1.8% for a smoked one. At home you can do whatever pleases you, although we don't see why someone would not want to make products in a safe way.

From the FDA's FSIS regulations...

Cure ingoing maximums.png

• daveomak
• Feb 24, 2017

Bacon has it's own set of rules NOT noted here....

This topic opens up the miserable time folks have with curing...   so many rules...  so many methods..  

Dry cured meats are safely allowed to have UP TO 625 Ppm nitrite added to them.....   

I do my best to give accurate information so you and your family will be safe....   On occasion, I have screwed up...  It is folks like yourself that are safety conscious and question dolts like myself that bring everything back into perspective....  

I should have noted the "SPECIAL RULES" that are Waaaaay out of the norm in my first response....   Thank you for questioning me...  Sometimes I just write stuff knowing full well it is safe, and not remembering others don't take this stuff to bed with them and are totally obsessed with food safety.... 

My error....  Again....  Thanks much for bringing me back to reality....    Dave

 

[DanMcG]

I'm going to go alone with Dave's first suggestion of reapplying #2 and let it go at that. The only thing I might add is I'd give it a good rinse and dry before adding the #2.
Although slightly different, take a look at this recipe from the Marianski's web site, they do 2 applications of #2 . Each is the max recommended amount of cure. (.25%)

http://www.meatsandsausages.com/hams-other-meats/coppa

Also in a dry rub, you can use both #1 & #2 together and you are allowed to to use the maximum allowed ppm for both. Dave do you agree?

But like also mentioned Bears dried beef sounds good to ....:biggrin:

Of course this is just my opinion and I'd be happy to hear others.

 

[daveomak]

Application of cure depends on your intent on the final product...   Nitrite is needed for the first few weeks during the process, while under refrigeration...   The remaining time, during the drying process at ~50 deg. F, is when nitrate is necessary for control of botulism and some pathogens and some prevention of fats souring, from my understanding..  You also have 3.5% salt which is an excellent preservative...

I think the rinse is good... and a second application of cure #2 is good...  Remember, the application of nitrite and nitrate is maximum allowable during the ENTIRE process...  from start to finish... 3 applications of ~200 Ppm or 2 applications of ~300 Ppm are maximum allowable suggestions by the FDA....    As Marianski notes.... " At home you can do what you like"...

What are you plans for the rest of the process ???   Are you planning a slow drying, using ~80 ish % humidity so you will be waiting 5-6 months for the finished product..   maybe longer....   

Keep good notes for the next go-round...  You may find 3.5% salt is a little high, given the application amounts of cure if you lean toward the 625 Ppm max. rate... 

This dry curing stuff is pretty much touchy-feely...  an artistic approach where beauty is in the eyes of the beholder...   I've seen many different methods and rates folks have noted and each likes their own finished product...  

At least the meat will not go to waste and a valuable learning experience was had by all...  That's the important part...   When you quit learning, all is lost, in my opinion...

Dave 

 

[atomicsmoke]

My 2c on bresaola. It's a whole muscle meat. With the initial nitrite protection I don't think there is a risk in drying it.

 

[hondabbq]

@SEA2SKI

Good to see another fellow egger on the Smoking site.

Im getting all my dry curing supplies in the mail tomorrow and will be starting out on that side of curing next week.

 

[sea2ski]

Guys, I appreciate all the responses. This is all great information and I am soaking it all in. I realize that what you are saying is almost like breathing to you - as in you do not have to think about it and is is just part of your everyday and "common" knowledge. But curing meats to me (beyond bacon) is totally new. And dry curing is even more that much of a greater adventure I want to go on! So again, I am very appreciative of your guidance.

I think I am going to plow forward and continue on with drying it. In a few more days, I am going to pull it out of the vac sealed bag, rinse in, soak it for a bit, then apply Cure #2.

@DaveOmak you asked "What are you plans for the rest of the process ???   Are you planning a slow drying, using ~80 ish % humidity so you will be waiting 5-6 months for the finished product..   maybe longer....   "

You might have missed in a post above:I have a fridge (actually 2 now) that can be dedicated to this new adventure. I have two separate sets of humidity/temp controllers. One will control the upper ranges by turning on the fridge and dehumidifier and the other will operate the humidifier and a small heat source (tbd). Once cured, I plan to keep the fridge between 68F and a low humidity of 70% and a high range of 73F with 75% humidity and hang the meat there to dry after spraying it, and the entire fridge, with mold 600. Since I have the controllers, I will be able to adjust the ranges as needed. What I have not decided on is if I am going to use an Umai bag, a casing or go naked. I believe traditionally, one uses a beef bung, but if there is no main advantage of using a casing, I would like to go naked. As I understand it, the casing is to slow the drying. But if I have the "optimal" conditions, I am not sure a casing is necessary, especially with whole muscles. (Fire away with your thoughts...)

I realize this is hobby is not a fast moving one and results come anything but overnight. For this first go-around I just want to have decent success. Between now and whenever these are ready, I plan on doing several other things along the way: Pancetta, Duck prosciutto and many other "easier" cured products which has a quicker turn-around-time. After all, I need a few things to keep me going and learn from. I think I will have to try Bears Dried Beef as well.... that does not look like it takes long, and is simple but delicious.

 

[sea2ski]

 
@SEA2SKI

Good to see another fellow egger on the Smoking site.

Im getting all my dry curing supplies in the mail tomorrow and will be starting out on that side of curing next week.

Hey @hondabbq!! How ya doing??

Getting started on dry curing now as well?  What is in the mail and what are your initial plans? Keep me (us) updated!

 

[hondabbq]

I don't have the meat chamber as a lot of members do here. Don't have the smarts to build one. LOL.

I received some Umai salami bags yesterday and will be making it up next week. I would be doing it this weekend but the wife and rented a cabin for the weekend.

Going to start off with some pepperoni and see how it goes from there. Umai bags are the way Im going to go for the foreseeable future.

I have been curing for a while now, started out with a few kits and now im doing all of it without kits an das I mentioned this is my first foray into the dry curing process. the kits are very fool proof I admit but now im trying to learn the science behind the curing, for both cures. Im the kind of guy that needs to know "why" I have to do things a certain way instead of just being told what to do and doing it.

 

[daveomak]

 
Guys, I appreciate all the responses. This is all great information and I am soaking it all in. I realize that what you are saying is almost like breathing to you - as in you do not have to think about it and is is just part of your everyday and "common" knowledge. But curing meats to me (beyond bacon) is totally new. And dry curing is even more that much of a greater adventure I want to go on! So again, I am very appreciative of your guidance.

I think I am going to plow forward and continue on with drying it. In a few more days, I am going to pull it out of the vac sealed bag, rinse in, soak it for a bit, then apply Cure #2.

@DaveOmak you asked "What are you plans for the rest of the process ???   Are you planning a slow drying, using ~80 ish % humidity so you will be waiting 5-6 months for the finished product..   maybe longer....   "

You might have missed in a post above:I have a fridge (actually 2 now) that can be dedicated to this new adventure. I have two separate sets of humidity/temp controllers. One will control the upper ranges by turning on the fridge and dehumidifier and the other will operate the humidifier and a small heat source (tbd). Once cured,

I plan to keep the fridge between 68F and a low humidity of 70% and a high range of 73F with 75% humidity and hang the meat there to dry after spraying it, and the entire fridge, with mold 600.

Since I have the controllers, I will be able to adjust the ranges as needed. What I have not decided on is if I am going to use an Umai bag, a casing or go naked. I believe traditionally, one uses a beef bung, but if there is no main advantage of using a casing, I would like to go naked. As I understand it, the casing is to slow the drying. But if I have the "optimal" conditions, I am not sure a casing is necessary, especially with whole muscles. (Fire away with your thoughts...)

I realize this is hobby is not a fast moving one and results come anything but overnight. For this first go-around I just want to have decent success. Between now and whenever these are ready, I plan on doing several other things along the way: Pancetta, Duck prosciutto and many other "easier" cured products which has a quicker turn-around-time. After all, I need a few things to keep me going and learn from. I think I will have to try Bears Dried Beef as well.... that does not look like it takes long, and is simple but delicious.

S2S, morning.... In my opinion....  your temp range of 68-73 is too high...   temps should be 50 ish deg. F, +/-......     Humidity of 70-75% is too low...   case hardening of the meat will result making for a product that is less than desireable.....  80% +/- is spot on...

Evan Brady is a member here and displayed some of his products and recipes awhile back..  You might take a look at them...

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/...steccata-and-pancetta-arrotolata#post_1354756

 

[sea2ski]

@DaveOmak and @DanMcG, as well as everyone else, thanks for all the advice!  Life got the best of me, and I have left the meat in the original cure.  16 days now.  Tomorrow I will take them out, rinse them really well, and give them a really good soak.  I am thinking about 2-3 hours in ice water. I am then going to apply Cure#2 at at rate of .25% to the weight of the meat once dried after the soak.

 My question is how long do I do the second cure of #2 on the meat?  I know it is not going to amount to much product, so I am thinking that I will just sprinkle as evenly as possible over the muscles. Good plan?

Also, I got a order in of a few beef bungs, so I am ready once the second cure is done to stuff the bungs with the meats. I also got some Mold-600. From reading, I get the impression that I should stuff the bungs, prick the casing to get any all air out, truss, spray with mold, and hang.  Am I on the correct path here?  If so, of course I have a few questions: 

Do I hang and immediately spray? Wait a day or two?

Also, I do not think I spray the mold on before putting in the bung, is that correct? Of before and after?

Man, I have read "Charcuterie", "The art of making fermented sausages" (two times), and "The Craft of Italian Dry Curing Salumi", and while I feel that I have a "Class 101" level of understanding; interpretation and application in the real world is kinda unnerving. So I really appreciate the assistance, guidance and suggestions made by all.

 

[daveomak]

 
@DaveOmak and @DanMcG, as well as everyone else, thanks for all the advice!  Life got the best of me, and I have left the meat in the original cure.  16 days now.  Tomorrow I will take them out, rinse them really well, and give them a really good soak.  I am thinking about 2-3 hours in ice water. I am then going to apply Cure#2 at at rate of .25% to the weight of the meat once dried after the soak.

 My question is how long do I do the second cure of #2 on the meat?   forever...

I know it is not going to amount to much product, so I am thinking that I will just sprinkle as evenly as possible over the muscles. Good plan?   That will work...  the cure will migrate N, S, E and west...    If you need to add additional cure #2 to insure complete coverage, go ahead...  Look at the chart for max. allowable and stay below it...

Also, I got a order in of a few beef bungs, so I am ready once the second cure is done to stuff the bungs with the meats. I also got some Mold-600. From reading, I get the impression that I should stuff the bungs, prick the casing to get any all air out, truss, spray with mold, and hang.  Am I on the correct path here?  Good plan...

If so, of course I have a few questions: 

Do I hang and immediately spray? Wait a day or two?   nepas knows...

Also, I do not think I spray the mold on before putting in the bung, is that correct? Of before and after?  I have read both...  After is the most common... that's where stray mold will start..

Man, I have read "Charcuterie", "The art of making fermented sausages" (two times), and "The Craft of Italian Dry Curing Salumi", and while I feel that I have a "Class 101" level of understanding; interpretation and application in the real world is kinda unnerving. So I really appreciate the assistance, guidance and suggestions made by all.

 

[BGKYSmoker]

CURES - Cures are used in sausage products for color and flavor development as well as retarding the development of bacteria in the low temperature environment of smoked meats.

Salt and sugar both cure meat by osmosis. In addition to drawing the water from the food, they dehydrate and kill the bacteria that make food spoil. In general, though, use of the word "cure" refers to processing the meat with either sodium nitrite or sodium nitrate.

The primary and most important reason to use cures is to prevent BOTULISM POISONING (Food poisoning). It is very important that any kind of meat or sausage that will be cooked and smoked at low temperature be cured. To trigger botulism poisoning, the requirements are quite simple - lack of oxygen, the presence of moisture, and temperatures in range of 40-140° F. When smoking meats, the heat and smoke eliminates the oxygen. The meats have moisture and are traditionally smoked and cooked in the low ranges of 90 to 185° F. As you can see, these are ideal conditions for food poisoning if you don't use cures. There are two types of commercially used cures.

Prague Powder #1

Also called Insta-Cure and Modern Cure. Cures are used to prevent meats from spoiling when being cooked or smoked at low temperatures (under 200 degrees F). This cure is 1 part sodium nitrite (6.25%) and 16 parts salt (93.75%) and are combined and crystallized to assure even distribution. As the meat temperate rises during processing, the sodium nitrite changes to nitric oxide and starts to ‘gas out’ at about 130 degrees F. After the smoking /cooking process is complete only about 10-20% of the original nitrite remains. As the product is stored and later reheated for consumption, the decline of nitrite continues. 4 ounces of Prague powder #1 is required to cure 100 lbs of meat. A more typical measurement for home use is 1 level tsp per 5 lbs of meat. Mix with cold water, then mix into meat like you would mix seasonings into meat.

Prague Powder #2

Used to dry-cure products. Prague powder #2 is a mixture of 1 part sodium nitrite, .64 parts sodium nitrate and 16 parts salt. (1 oz. of sodium nitrite with .64 oz. of sodium nitrate to each lb. of salt.) It is primarily used in dry-curing Use with products that do not require cooking, smoking, or refrigeration. This cure, which is sodium nitrate, acts like a time release, slowly breaking down into sodium nitrite, then into nitric oxide. This allows you to dry cure products that take much longer to cure. A cure with sodium nitrite would dissipate too quickly. Use 1 oz. of cure for 25 lbs. of meat or 1 level teaspoon of cure for 5 lbs. of meat when mixing with meat. When using a cure in a brine solution, follow a recipe.