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First time ribs - Raichlen Vanilla Brown Sugar St Louis style?

dsc106

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Making my first rack of ribs. Masterbuilt Gravity 560. St. Louis Pork Spare Ribs from Costco, 3 racks total weight for all 9.7lbs.

Was thinking of doing Raichlen's recipe from Project Smoke - Vanilla Brown Sugar Glaze ribs. Rub with the mix, rest overnight in fridge, then smoke for 3.5-4 hours @ 225 with hickory wood, add the glaze in the last 5 minutes and pull. That's it.

Seems like a pretty reputable source. In Meathead's book Science of Great BBQ has a very similar recipe, calling for 5-6 for spare or center cut ribs, or 3-4 hours for baby back. As I understand it, St Louis style spare ribs cook similar to baby back - hence the short 3.5-4 hour time recommended by Raichlan?

Online I see a lot of various time/temps combination for St. Louis style, sometimes much longer. Why? Also, the 3-2-1 method. I suppose I could adapt this recipe and do 3-2-1. Supposedly it's less technically correct, but more foolproof? However, with the Gravity Series 560 I suspect I won't run into an issue with the PID controlled temperature.

Bottom line: do you think the non 3-2-1, simple 3.5-4 hour recipe for my St. Louis ribs as recommended by Raichlen will be a good first go? The alternative would be Meathead's last meal ribs with his Memphis dust rub and optional BBQ sauce (sweet baby rays?). I'm trying to keep it overall simple for my first time out, and to have a crowd pleaser for the family.

Thanks for any tips/suggestions and clarification on the above questions!! Can't wait to get smoking :D
 

chef jimmyj

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All I smoke is St Louis and at 225, 3 to 4 hours will still be pretty tough.
If smoking unwrapped, not 3-2-1, at 225 plan on 5 to 6 hours, maybe longer if meaty. If you want Tender but Bite of the Bone, at the 5 hour mark look fir an Internal Temp of 195°F and/or, a therm probe should slide in the meat with little to no resistance. You can also use Tongs to lift the ribs from one end, 4 to 5 bones in and the rest of the rack should hang down at about 90° but not break apart.
For Fall Off the Bone tender. The IT will be about 200-205. Probe will slide in like going in Peanut Butter and if you grab and gently Twist one of the Center Bones, it will pull free of the meat. You can Sauce when the IT is 10°F shy of what I suggest.
3-2-1 will almost always give Fall Off the Bone ribs unless adjustments are made. Add Rub and smoke 3 hours at 225. Lay out HD Foil add some Brown Sugar, a few Pats of Butter and a strip of BBQ Sauce down the center. Place the Ribs Meat Side Down, wrap and back in the smoker 2 hours. Remove the ribs from foil, back in the Smoker, meat up, baste with sauce and smoke 30 to 60 minutes, testing as above....JJ
 

dsc106

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Thank you so much for the great information and tips! I really appreciate it.

A few questions to help me understand and bring clarity:

1. Do St Louis ribs cook similar time to baby back ribs, or closer to spare ribs?
2. why does Raichlen suggest a time so far off (hours short!) at only 3.5-4 hours for St Louis?
3. will cooking the ribs for 5-6 hours risk me over doing the ribs or drying them out/making them tough? Just worried I’ll ruin them. I do have temp probes.
4. Would you recommend I utilize 3-2-1 for my first time out, or go more classic with no foil wrap?
 

chef jimmyj

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1. Do St Louis ribs cook similar time to baby back ribs, or closer to spare ribs?
Similar to Spare Ribs. At least 1 hour more the Back Ribs to get tender.
2. why does Raichlen suggest a time so far off (hours short!) at only 3.5-4 hours for St Louis?
I can say exactly but the Recipe read 225/250 he may assume people will adjust temp to Split the difference or go to 250. Add in swings in temp and you are cooking Hotter than 225. LOTS of guys here smoke St Louis Ribs at 225°F. I have NEVER seen a member tell a Newbie, " St Louis Ribs at 225 take 3 1/2 to 4 hours. "
3. will cooking the ribs for 5-6 hours risk me over doing the ribs or drying them out/making them tough? Just worried I’ll ruin them. I do have temp probes.
Thousands of members follow the procedure I layed out and I learned it here, 11 years ago, from guys that learned it from guys before them.
4. Would you recommend I utilize 3-2-1 for my first time out, or go more classic with no foil wrap?
I want you to Enjoy the experience, not be Stressed. With 3-2-1 it is next to Impossible to get Dry, Tough Ribs. Guys biggest complaint, " They were Too Tender and fell off the bone..."

Lets put this together for you to Not Fail if you maintain 225, +/- 15°F.

Make a Double Batch of Rub from the Recipe. Apply generously the night before, wrap and Refer the Ribs overnight. When you are ready to Smoke. Get your Ribs out, unwrap and apply more Rub and let them warm up while you fire up your smoker and get it settled at 225°F.
Put the Ribs in the smoker, meat Up, and Smoke 3 hours. NO PEEKING! If you're Lookin', you're not Cookin'!
Mean while make a Double Batch of Glaze and enjoy an Adult Beverage to Calm your Nerves!
After 3 hours. Lay out HD Foil and add Brown Sugar, Pats of Butter and a sprinkling of Rub down the foil, the width of your Ribs. Place the Ribs Meat Down and seal. Be careful not to tear the foil on the bones.
Back in the Smoker, meat Down, for 2 hours. Adult Beverage time.
When the 2 hours is up, Gently unwrap your ribs and place them back in the Smoker meat Up. Brush with Glaze!
Smoke for 30 minutes and start testing for Temp, Tenderness and Bend, as I described earlier. If you are Happy with the result, Brush the meat with Glaze and cook 5 more minutes, per recipe. If not Tender enough or you want Fall of the Bone, go longer, Test and Glaze until you are Happy.😃
Remove to a Cutting Board, rest 10-15 minutes, cut them apart and serve...

Have Fun, enjoy your time with Guests and/or Family. You have a Great Smoker and a Bunch of SMF Friends watching your back. Anything you get worried about, Start a new HELP! Thread. I or others, following this thread, will help you out. 3-2-1 has been around a Long Time and works great...JJ👍
 

SmokinAl

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Just take JJ’s advice & your ribs will be awesome!!
A
 

dsc106

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I'm really impressed by the thoughtful and detailed responses here. Thank you very much! JJ's advice sounds like a hit (and like years of experience talking).

It looks like I'm going to do JJ's 3-2-1 and simply follow the instructions laid out here. In addition, if it's ok, I'd love to ask a couple more questions for personal education's sake!

5. Good point on Raichlen's 225-250F range. So what I am gathering is that 225F is listed only to account for the inevitable upward temperature swings that most non-pros will face, not because you *actually* want to go that low and slow outside of using foil? With the masterbuilt's PID that keeps the temp in a very tight range automatically, in the future if I try this recipe, I should set it for 250F? How long would it take @ 250F then, maybe 4-5 hours @ 250F for St Louis? (To be clear I wasn't tied to 225F, I really have no idea what I am doing so the temp wasn't a sticking point, just a point of confusion).

6. For the 3-2-1 recipe, a concern on the first post, JJ, was the addition of BBQ sauce which seemed like it wouldn't mix with the brown sugar rub and vanilla brown sugar glaze on Raichlen's recipe. However in your last post you addressed this - sounds like all I need for moisture on the foil wrap is just the butter then?

7. So, 3-2-1 is ~6 hours @ 225F constant, internal temp around 205F. Non foil wrap would be perhaps ~4.5-5 hours @ 250F and might give more "competition" style ribs with a bite, *BUT*, I risk drying them out or overdoing them?

8. On 3-2-1, for the last 1 hour @ 225F where I add glaze. Why on this method can I add glaze for a full hour, but on the non 3-2-1 method, people are cautious to only add glaze in the last 5 minutes saying it could burn it? Is it just due to the added moisture/change in meat when doing 3-2-1?

Thank you, thank you, thank you again! I hope this thread will help others in the future as well. I look forward to reaching a point where I can be the one sharing tips & experience.
 

dsc106

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Also, one more:

9. Am I over complicating my first go with Raichlen's recipe? Should I just stick to something simpler, perhaps the recipe here on MadScientist BBQ:

(
Is he credible? He essentially suggests K.I.S.S with S&P only, scoring the membrane and not removing. At 12:50-13:20 he shares his thoughts on 3-2-1 saying how often they get overdone, and prefers something more like a 4-1-0.5 method. Says too much on rubs block smoke absorption, and he also does some spraying with a 50/50 mix of water & ACV around 3 hours (something Raichlen doesn't mention).

Ok, to be clear, I'm looking at doing JJ's method here so don't take the question the wrong way! I trust the advice to just follow the 3-2-1 as laid out by JJ who is clearly a master of the craft! Just trying to understand the why behind some of this, as well, share that I am open to a different and simpler recipe if it would be better to not start out first time with the brown sugar/vanilla style ribs (maybe I am over complicating what a first outing should be!).
 

chef jimmyj

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Thanks for the kind words. The last several years before retirement was as a Culinary Instructor. You need to be detailed teaching 24 kids, every 16 weeks, who pretty much only know how boil water, how to become Pro Chefs.


5. Good point on Raichlen's 225-250F range. So what I am gathering is that 225F is listed only to account for the inevitable upward temperature swings that most non-pros will face, not because you *actually* want to go that low and slow outside of using foil? With the masterbuilt's PID that keeps the temp in a very tight range automatically, in the future if I try this recipe, I should set it for 250F? How long would it take @ 250F then, maybe 4-5 hours @ 250F for St Louis? (To be clear I wasn't tied to 225F, I really have no idea what I am doing so the temp wasn't a sticking point, just a point of confusion).
Yes, smoking at 250 will knock an hour or two off the cook time. Higher Temp...Faster cook. BUT...Less Smokey Flavor!
6. For the 3-2-1 recipe, a concern on the first post, JJ, was the addition of BBQ sauce which seemed like it wouldn't mix with the brown sugar rub and vanilla brown sugar glaze on Raichlen's recipe. However in your last post you addressed this - sounds like all I need for moisture on the foil wrap is just the butter then?
Yeah, sorry about that. Teaching 3-2-1 so frequently, I gave you the Generic Method. Later, I wrote taking Raichlen's flavors in to account. You really don't need to put anything in the foil. The Ribs do fine steaming in their own juices. But, most take this opportunity to Add sweetness, more Seasoning, even another dimension with a complimentary flavor.
7. So, 3-2-1 is ~6 hours @ 225F constant, internal temp around 205F. Non foil wrap would be perhaps ~4.5-5 hours @ 250F and might give more "competition" style ribs with a bite, *BUT*, I risk drying them out or overdoing them?
Yes and No. Yes the Ribs will have more bite, but the risk of drying is low. There are guys that smoke at 325-350°F that get them done in 2 hours and have won competitions with tasty juicy Ribs! Pork Ribs, Butts, Shoulder, are juicy not because you retain Moisture. They are juicy because over time the Fat liquifies and most important, all of the Connective Tissue that makes meat Tough, denatures into Gelatin providing moisture and that Lip Smacking, Velvety, Mouth Coating, Rich Flavor.

8. On 3-2-1, for the last 1 hour @ 225F where I add glaze. Why on this method can I add glaze for a full hour, but on the non 3-2-1 method, people are cautious to only add glaze in the last 5 minutes saying it could burn it? Is it just due to the added moisture/change in meat when doing 3-2-1?
The Recipe makes about1/2Cup Glaze for 4 Racks! That is only enough for one pass the last 5 minutes. To coat a couple times, every 15 minutes the last hour, plus some for foiling, if used, you would need more.
The recipe calls for 1 Stick of Butter plus Sugar, Vanilla and Water. Fat and Water don't mix or at least not very long without help. That Recipe gives you a little bit of Vanilla Syrup with a Whole Lot of a Buttery Oil Slick, floating on top!
I would use 1 Stk Butter but double or triple the rest to make plenty to baste the ribs as often as you want. Any leftover, you can pour over Pancakes the next morning.😀
 

chef jimmyj

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MadScientistBBQ is credible and shows another option. If you start Reading the Rib Forum, you will find a Thousand different options for Rubs, Sauces, Foiling Ingredients, Cook Timing and Temperatures.
The Vanilla Glazed Ribs, with a few tweaks, will be great. Yes, 3-2-1 gives very tender if not FOB Ribs. 4-1-.5, would work as well, even with Vanilla Glaze, for more Bite Through Ribs. Your choice as to what you are looking to get. Both Cook Timing is straight forward an easy to follow for tasty results.
I love your Enthusiasm, we have ALL been there. There will be Success and Failure as you learn.
Let's get your Feet Wet, Pray for Nice Weather and no Power Failure, and make the Vanilla Glazed Ribs, 3-2-1 or 4-1-.5.
Stick around see what some Talented Pimasters are doing and never be afraid to ask questions. The folks at SMF have all started with a Rack of Ribs or a few Chicken Legs and are here to learn, teach and show what we love to do. Make sure you Take Pictures so we all can enjoy your adventure!...JJ
 

DRKsmoking

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Raichlen's recipe from Project Smoke - Vanilla Brown Sugar Glaze ribs
Hi dsc106
I did the exact same cook/smoke back on Feb.13th of this year. It was my 3rd or 4th smoke . It came out fantastic ... and I am normally pretty hard and critical of my cooks/smokes. But as a newbie, i have been very thankful for all the help and knowledge here from the members . This is a great place to learn and share.

Hope yours came out ( if you did them ) to your liking because that is what matters and by the way Pictures ,pictures pictures... lol

David
 

dsc106

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Thank you for all the help! I did the smoke yesterday and things turned out well. Pictures above, plus a picture of my wonderful wife's side salad :)

Same rub/glaze on all 3 racks of that came in the pack of St. Louis style cut from Costco. I did add some more rub to the top one that wasn't fully covered in the picture before throwing it on.

But, I did each rack with different timing:

- One Rack 3.5-1-1 (5.5 hours)
- One rack uncovered the entire time (5.5 hours)
- One rack 3-1.5-0.5(basically 3-2-1 but a little shorter on the foil); 5 hours (it seemed done before the other two)

So, total time on smoker was 5-5.5 hours. I think I could have gone a little longer.

My notes:

- Everyone's overall favorite was the rack that was uncovered the whole time! It had the most flavor. This was the rack on the topside of the tray with 2 ribs on it.
- Everyone's favorite texture was the 3-1.5-0.45 rack. Flavor not as good as the uncovered, but it tenderized more thanks to the hyper-drive effect of foil. This was the only rack that had the proper pullback on the bone (this is the rack that is SOLO on the pictures)
- Everyone's least favorite was the 3.5-1-1 rack. Don't know why, but somehow this one seemed LESS done than the rack that was uncovered the whole time(?!) even though it was on the smoker same duration.

A few follow up questions:

1. The ribs pictured with two on the tray - no pullback on the bone. I suspect another hour in the smoker would have been best?
2. Any idea why the 3.5-1-1 seemed tougher than than the uncovered rack, even though smoke duration was identical? I would have thought foil would have made this one more done.
3. Any idea why the shorter foil wrapped ribs had less flavor than the longer foil wrapped ribs? Maybe the rub washed away with meat juices?
4. Do we agree more time was needed based on pics/description?
5. Masterbuilt 560 w/PID: I am guessing here, but can anyone speak specifically to the impact having a PID on this has? Everytime I checked, this thing was NAILING the temp. I was locked in right at 225F, with a max of 2-3F fluctuation. For this reason, without the uperward heat swing, it makes me think if I set to 225F my ribs will take on the longer side (6 hours+ unwrapped) since the temp is staying down?
6. Spice rubs are expesnsive! I think I am doing it wrong. I ran to the local store and got these little bottles of spice rub, and for this run I used almost an entire $8 bottle of Paprika. YIKES. Plus a good chunk of dried spices from other bottles. Is there a more cost effective place to buy some key dry rub ingredients that are still good quality?
7. I can't tell if the St. Lous ribs I got from Costco had the membrane removed or not. Total noob question, I know. I have one picture there of the ribs where you can *sort of* see the backs of two. Does it look like the membrane is on or off? I toyed with it for a while, but ultimately couldn't find the membrane, and just scored the back horizontally and vertically like I saw in one video just in case. But maybe the membrane was pre removed?

Thanks again for all the help! Everyone was happy, things turned out. Me, knowing what COULD be, I'd say it was a "solid" first go but I have not yet reached Rib Nirvana.

Next time I am thinking of trying Meathead's Memphis Dust "Last Meal Ribs" uncovered the whole time for a longer duration.
 

chef jimmyj

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1. The ribs pictured with two on the tray - no pullback on the bone. I suspect another hour in the smoker would have been best?
Opinions vary but in my experience, you get the greatest Pull Back from Membrane On and Foiling or smokers with a high moisture environment. I ignore Pull Back as it is not consistent. Two racks same smoker...Different amounts of Pull Back.
2. Any idea why the 3.5-1-1 seemed tougher than than the uncovered rack, even though smoke duration was identical? I would have thought foil would have made this one more done.
More time in foil, more tender, always. No two Pigs are the same. Example. Two 8 pound Pork Butts at 225. One takes 14 hours the other, 2 inches away, 18 hours!
3. Any idea why the shorter foil wrapped ribs had less flavor than the longer foil wrapped ribs? Maybe the rub washed away with meat juices?
Could be less rub, rub came off, tighter muscle absorbed less rub flavor. Position in smoker? Too many variables.
4. Do we agree more time was needed based on pics/description?
TIME is a Road Map to get you to Check Points to...Wrap, Unwrap, Turn, Spritz, Switch Racks, Probe, Run Bend Test and so on. The Meat is Done when All the Tests Agree it's Done, regardless of Time.
5. Masterbuilt 560 w/PID: I am guessing here, but can anyone speak specifically to the impact having a PID on this has? Everytime I checked, this thing was NAILING the temp. I was locked in right at 225F, with a max of 2-3F fluctuation. For this reason, without the uperward heat swing, it makes me think if I set to 225F my ribs will take on the longer side (6 hours+ unwrapped) since the temp is staying down?
That is the whole point of a PID, Rock Steady Temps. Not so critical for some meat, Ribs, but absolutely important for Cured Smoked Sausage and short cooks like Seafood. Lower the Temp, Longer the Cook.
6. Spice rubs are expesnsive! I think I am doing it wrong. I ran to the local store and got these little bottles of spice rub, and for this run I used almost an entire $8 bottle of Paprika. YIKES. Plus a good chunk of dried spices from other bottles. Is there a more cost effective place to buy some key dry rub ingredients that are still good quality?
You may get a lot of answers here. I use Spices Inc. My Spice Sage is good, American Spice Company, Penzey's, You have to shop around. One may be cheaper on Paprika but high on Granulated Garlic. You may choose to pay a little more for one item to reach a Free Shipping threshold bundling.
7. I can't tell if the St. Lous ribs I got from Costco had the membrane removed or not. Total noob question, I know. I have one picture there of the ribs where you can *sort of* see the backs of two. Does it look like the membrane is on or off? I toyed with it for a while, but ultimately couldn't find the membrane, and just scored the back horizontally and vertically like I saw in one video just in case. But maybe the membrane was pre removed?
The Membrane was Removed on the bottom up rack, so I would guess all had been stripped...JJ
 

chef jimmyj

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Next time I am thinking of trying Meathead's Memphis Dust "Last Meal Ribs" uncovered the whole time for a longer duration.
I spend Hours with you and you are going to go SOMEWHERE ELSE FOR RECIPES!?!
Not Cool Bro!

I'm Teasing. You can go where you wish...BUT...When it comes to Shear Volume of Recipes, Content, Tips and Experience. SMF is In a Class by Ourselves!...JJ
 

dsc106

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Haha JIMMY I didn't know you had your own recipe!! Another Noob Error :D You tell me then, what rub/recipe should I do next?

Also, a point of clarification on this one:

2. Any idea why the 3.5-1-1 seemed tougher than than the uncovered rack, even though smoke duration was identical? I would have thought foil would have made this one more done.
More time in foil, more tender, always. Now two Pigs are the same. Example. Two 8 pound Pork Butts at 225. One takes 14 hours the other, 2 inches away, 18 hours!

The rib with more time in foil in this case was TOUGHER! Though, maybe you didn't read it wrong. Guessing the Costco pack had different pigs in there, so essentially you're saying it just came down to it being a different rib in this case, not a different recipe eh?

As for the ribs with no bone pullback, good to know! They did pass the bend test, although it was my first time doing the bend test so perhaps they could have been... bendier.

One thing I could use clarification on is, how do you mess up ribs? How do you overdo them in a PID controlled smoker like this? Seems like I'm really not at much risk of going too far, at least in regards to going an hour too long... where, even unwrapped, the worst consequence would simply be FOB when you wanted a cleaner bite through?
 

dsc106

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Also, I did not spritz/spray at all. And no water pan. Should I do either on the next go?
 

DRKsmoking

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Very good that you did your smoke , first one looks great good pull back,

ChefJimmy has you covered with all the questions that you asked , doing and trying and asking for help is the right direction

David
 

chef jimmyj

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The rib with more time in foil in this case was TOUGHER! Though, maybe you didn't read it wrong. Guessing the Costco pack had different pigs in there, so essentially you're saying it just came down to it being a different rib in this case, not a different recipe eh?
I was talking Generality. Yes, more time in Foil more Tender. But, there are still variables. This Rack may have been tougher than the Rack with less foil time. More Moisture in one Foil Pack than the other. Rack with Less time in Foil may have been in an unknown Hot Spot in your Smoker. Smoking Meat is mostly an ART with some Science to help make better decisions. Hell, Something as simple as Water doesn't always Boil at 212°F. It depends on Altitude and will boil at a Lower Temp the Higher you go! So, we certainly Can't expect something as complex a Meat to act or react any one particular way...

One thing I could use clarification on is, how do you mess up ribs? How do you overdo them in a PID controlled smoker like this? Seems like I'm really not at much risk of going too far, at least in regards to going an hour too long... where, even unwrapped, the worst consequence would simply be FOB when you wanted a cleaner bite through?
Pretty much. Under Cooking is probably the worst we to screw up Ribs The make up of Ribs, high Fat and Connective Tissue, gives some Wiggle room on how long they are cooked and at what temp. You can get equally great results with a whole variety of different combinations of Cook Time and Temp. BUT, like anything made up of a lot of Water, applying Heat will eventually Dry the Meat out.

Also, I did not spritz/spray at all. And no water pan. Should I do either on the next go?
Again a general list of common techniques. Ask a hundred guys here if you should Spritz and you will not only get Yes and No answers but, different answers on How Much, How Often and With What Spritz Liquid or Recipe.

I could spend time on the Science, Benefits, Pitfalls and Circumstances you may consider Spritzing or it's Hardcore Cousin Mopping, but It's Supper Time and Jimmy needs Food!😂
Go to the Ribs Forum and Read and Research what members have done and the result, Good and Bad.
 

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