Amazon knives for cutting meat ????

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I think may sell my Ken Onion Worksharp and get the Worksharp guided stone setup. Seems far easier for a lefty to use. Maybe I'll eat it in classified here. Probably $100 firm and shipping. Amazon is $150 with tax.
 
I thought I would just share some perspective.......The debate between hardness and toughness is very old and very controversial/contentious. The debate between a "carbon knife" and "stainless knife" is equally similar. However, if one takes the time to understand what this actually means then the debate becomes more about science and design. The fundamentals of knife engineering start at the molecular level and how the molecule bond at the atomic level. Each type of steel has different properties because of the unique make up of specific steels composition. However, this is not everything, how a knife steel is "developed" (ie manipulating it at the molecular level) into a usable knife is a huge factor.

When it comes to mass production one doesn't need to have anything fancy to make a quality knife, however, starting with a good knife steel, properly treating it with a designed heat treat for that steel will yield a very nice knife. I will note that lower priced knifes usually have a lower hardness (usually around 56-57) because it is ideal for the steel they are made from, it is easily manufactured, and it usually has high toughness (but not always). This comes at a sacrifice because the molecular bonds might not be optimized and it could bend (yeild, ie fail) more easily, and require more frequent sharpening however, these hold a reasonable edge, sharpen easy and usually make a good knife.

Typically higher end knifes ie for example the 4-Star Henckels I happen to have on my counter top (some of the set are from 29+ years ago) spend a little more time in the manufacturing process to get a more optimum balance between hardness and toughness. This includes a cryo treatment to maximize the hardness without sacrificing the toughness (harness usually around 58-59). These can be very nice knives, but they require more effort to sharpen, and they will break before they bend (bending and breaking are both failure though). The trade off is they hold an edge longer and tend to be better with corrosion because the molecules at the molecular level are "tighter" spaced.

Mono Steel vs Damacus (a combo steel) is also a debate but if one understands the molecular bond in a knife steel a Damacus steel "can" be equally strong and in some cases (if properly design and executed) have some enhanced properties over a mono steel. A true san mai for example. A true san mai has a hardenable center core with a non hardenable surface. The blend of steel has a composite molecular blend to optimize the internal moment stresses when a knife bends, ie the bonds on the surface where the molecular movement is highest and under the most strain have a more flexible non-yielding composition which "protects" the stiffer edge holding core (the centered core has less internal moment stresses).

Many custom knifes strive to reach a balance of toughness while reaching a hardness above 60. There are many steels and "procedures" to result in just that. For example, a disposable razor has a stainless steel that is similar to AEB-L stainless, and that little flexible razor blade is usually at a hardness of 60-61...its amazing how they flex but yet cut....but they are design to do just that. I happen to have a kitchen knife sitting on my desk that is out of AEB-L stainless that has a tested harness of 61 that I have dropped tip first on the garage concrete (didn't do it on purpose!!) and it didn't break or bend or even make a mark in the 0.015" tip. It will take some skill to sharpen but will hold an edge for a very long time.

What is true and undebated and will be forever strived for is the "perfect knife steel" and this includes the debate between a $$$$ and a $ knife. I happen to have many versions of the $$$$ to the $ knifes in my kitchen and they all perform as they are designed to. I do know that the $$$$ 4-Stars were worth every penny or should I say 0.00228 cents a day for what I paid for my chef knife more than 29 years ago.

Just a final thought. Putting a steel in a dishwasher and subjecting it to 145 - 165 degree degreaser infused water will remove the oils from the surface of the knife and "find" any and "all" imperfections at the molecular level (which exist on all steels) and will accelerate the breakdown of these molecular bonds. IE dishwasher safe doesn't mean dishwasher proof!

PS, I sharpen almost all my knifes with sandpaper and most professionals do as well. It just happens to be in a belt form. IE the sandpaper on a PVC is very very very effective if you change out the paper offten!
 
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Just a final thought. Putting a steel in a dishwasher and subjecting it to 145 - 165 degree degreaser infused water will remove the oils from the surface of the knife and "find" any and all imperfections at the molecular level (which exist on all steels) and will accelerate the breakdown of these molecular bonds. IE dishwasher safe doesn't mean dishwasher proof!
This looks like more of an Internet concern than a real concern. If an $18 knife lasts 40 years, going in the dishwasher over and over, doing its job perfectly the whole time, it's dishwasher-safe. You can't ask for more.

It reminds me of an argument I once had with a tool expert. He told me that if I put charcoal on galvanized steel and roasted a pig over it, everyone present would get sick from the zinc fumes. Of course, this doesn't happen in real life, but it sounds great on the Internet. My guests and I had a wonderful meal. My friend the expert was furious with me, but all I did was disagree with him based on common sense, not to mention experience. Cubans have been putting charcoal on galvanized steel for decades.

If a cheap restaurant-grade knife eventually gives out from atomic-level dishwasher damage, which will not actually happen in real life, I'll be able to say I saved hours and hours of treating a knife like an invalid. If you spend 5 minutes per day washing knives, it comes out to roughly one full day per year, so 10 full days per decade. I'll also save a lot of money.

I'll bet no one here find any sources saying someone tested Damascus in kitchen knives against modern homogeneous steels like M390 or CTS-XHP and found that Damascus did its job as well, let alone better.
 
LOL I just checked the link and bought them with the 50% off coupon plus an additional 30% of deal. 3 knives for $14 shipped!! Thank you!!
Wow thanks for the heads up, i just got a set for $14.49 as well!!! These will replace they cheap ones I've had in my knife block forever.
I'm quite partial to good ceramic blades but they don't handle bones or tougher things or people who don't know how to use them very well so having these good HC steel ones will be fantastic to replace my metal ones.

ESPECIALLY at this price point! :D
 
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Wow thanks for the heads up, i just got a set for $14.49 as well!!! These will replace they cheap ones I've had in my knife block forever.
I'm quite partial to good ceramic blades but they don't handle bones or tougher things or people who don't know how to use them very well so having these good HC steel ones will be fantastic to replace my metal ones.

ESPECIALLY at this price point! :D
I think these have 16 degree edges so careful on bones. I have a set of these on my daily use block too.
 
M390 and CTS-XHP are very nice steels, ie the M390 makes a very nice chef knife because it can sit in a hardness range of 62-63 for edge retention. A .150 blank to do a 8 inch chef is currently about $225 and it needs a cryo to get it to perform at its peak. I would expect a chef knife from a quality maker out of M390 or CTS-XHP would be a $$$$$ knife though.....

knife Toughness-edgereten.jpg
 
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Excellent write up civilsmoker civilsmoker ! That was a lot more effort than I was willing to put into this silly debate. Steel is not 'just steel' anymore if you know what I mean.

I happen to have a number of knife steels in various fixed and folder knives. M390, 3v, s90v, CPM-CruWear, 30v, VG-10, 1095, 440, right down to a cheap Mora. They all work. Some require sharpening a lot more often that the others.

You are bang on in that the debate extends across a number of facets and really isn't new or different. Pick a tool for the task at hand. If a cheap knife tickles your fancy and gets the job done, great. If a more expensive knife is your thing and does the job you want, then great.

I don't throw any of my knives in the dishwasher mainly because I keep them really sharp and I'm worried that my wife or 11 y/o may cut themselves. Other than that I don't baby any of my knives - expensive or otherwise. That doesn't mean I'm going to be hacking bones or try to cut nails with any of them. They're a tool that's designed cut. Use them as intended and they'll last a lifetime.

Find what you like and keep it sharp.
 
I thought I would just share some perspective.......The debate between hardness and toughness is very old and very controversial/contentious. The debate between a "carbon knife" and "stainless knife" is equally similar. However, if one takes the time to understand what this actually means then the debate becomes more about science and design. The fundamentals of knife engineering start at the molecular level and how the molecule bond at the atomic level. Each type of steel has different properties because of the unique make up of specific steels composition. However, this is not everything, how a knife steel is "developed" (ie manipulating it at the molecular level) into a usable knife is a huge factor.

When it comes to mass production one doesn't need to have anything fancy to make a quality knife, however, starting with a good knife steel, properly treating it with a designed heat treat for that steel will yield a very nice knife. I will note that lower priced knifes usually have a lower hardness (usually around 56-57) because it is ideal for the steel they are made from, it is easily manufactured, and it usually has high toughness (but not always). This comes at a sacrifice because the molecular bonds might not be optimized and it could bend (yeild, ie fail) more easily, and require more frequent sharpening however, these hold a reasonable edge, sharpen easy and usually make a good knife.

Typically higher end knifes ie for example the 4-Star Henckels I happen to have on my counter top (some of the set are from 29+ years ago) spend a little more time in the manufacturing process to get a more optimum balance between hardness and toughness. This includes a cryo treatment to maximize the hardness without sacrificing the toughness (harness usually around 58-59). These can be very nice knives, but they require more effort to sharpen, and they will break before they bend (bending and breaking are both failure though). The trade off is they hold an edge longer and tend to be better with corrosion because the molecules at the molecular level are "tighter" spaced.

Mono Steel vs Damacus (a combo steel) is also a debate but if one understands the molecular bond in a knife steel a Damacus steel "can" be equally strong and in some cases (if properly design and executed) have some enhanced properties over a mono steel. A true san mai for example. A true san mai has a hardenable center core with a non hardenable surface. The blend of steel has a composite molecular blend to optimize the internal moment stresses when a knife bends, ie the bonds on the surface where the molecular movement is highest and under the most strain have a more flexible non-yielding composition which "protects" the stiffer edge holding core (the centered core has less internal moment stresses).

Many custom knifes strive to reach a balance of toughness while reaching a hardness above 60. There are many steels and "procedures" to result in just that. For example, a disposable razor has a stainless steel that is similar to AEB-L stainless, and that little flexible razor blade is usually at a hardness of 60-61...its amazing how they flex but yet cut....but they are design to do just that. I happen to have a kitchen knife sitting on my desk that is out of AEB-L stainless that has a tested harness of 61 that I have dropped tip first on the garage concrete (didn't do it on purpose!!) and it didn't break or bend or even make a mark in the 0.015" tip. It will take some skill to sharpen but will hold an edge for a very long time.

What is true and undebated and will be forever strived for is the "perfect knife steel" and this includes the debate between a $$$$ and a $ knife. I happen to have many versions of the $$$$ to the $ knifes in my kitchen and they all perform as they are designed to. I do know that the $$$$ 4-Stars were worth every penny or should I say 0.00228 cents a day for what I paid for my chef knife more than 29 years ago.

Just a final thought. Putting a steel in a dishwasher and subjecting it to 145 - 165 degree degreaser infused water will remove the oils from the surface of the knife and "find" any and "all" imperfections at the molecular level (which exist on all steels) and will accelerate the breakdown of these molecular bonds. IE dishwasher safe doesn't mean dishwasher proof!

PS, I sharpen almost all my knifes with sandpaper and most professionals do as well. It just happens to be in a belt form. IE the sandpaper on a PVC is very very very effective if you change out the paper offten!
Dad, do you have my new knife finished? I did all my chores and dishes are done! :emoji_blush:

Ryan
 
I don't throw any of my knives in the dishwasher mainly because I keep them really sharp and I'm worried that my wife or 11 y/o may cut themselves. Other than that I don't baby any of my knives - expensive or otherwise.
My wife finally moved into my house in November, and she has been highly critical of my sharp knives. Not the first woman I've known who thought sharpness was a bad thing. She has cut herself twice already. I told her I can get her a nice dull knife just for her.
 
Is there any or can anyone suggest any knives off Amazon for cutting meat and fat from meat. Not sure if I need a cleaver or a knife. What you guys think? Suggestions? Thank you guys
I bought a set of old hickory . They are the best to me ! Carbon steel not stainless they sharpen easy and stay sharp of course you have to dry them off good or they will rust and over the years as you sharpen they will get smaller but takes a long time they are around 70 to 90bucks for like four or five knives
 
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My wife ... has been highly critical of my sharp knives....who thought sharpness was a bad thing.

She must be my wife's lost twin. My wife learned her kitchen and knife skills in home-ec 50 years ago. I've tried to help her with her knife skills to no avail. I don't sharpen the knives she uses like I do mine. She doesn't push, pull, or rock. She presses straight down. I let her use my mandolin one time. Result? Three stitches.
 
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For the price, value, durability, and edge retention, you can't go wrong with Victorinox or Mercer, and both are available on Amazon.

A knife is only half the story, though. The other half is a steel and a stone or diamond or belt sharpening system. Most of the factory edges can be maintained for about 6 months to a year with household use from the steel alone. Once they go dull though, you need a sharpening system to restore the edge. Research sharpening system comparisons on YouTube to get an idea what might work for you.

I use stones, which aren't for the beginner unless you have time and patience to learn. My kids got rolling sharpeners for Xmas. One got a Horl (German) and the other a Work Sharp (US). Avoid the cheaper Tumbler and other knockoffs.
noboundaries noboundaries Ray, can you elaborate a bit on the decision to gift the Horl? What's special about it that would help create and maintain a good angled edge? I have a Work sharp but have a difficult time getting consistent results with it. Have also used a stone in the past which did provide much better results. The downside is the difficulty in dealing with both 15º and 10º knives to keep them at their proper angle.
 
I never use anything but diamond hones on the kitchen knives, and they are working fine.

I guess it's obvious they're really sharpeners, not hones. They remove material. Someone will chime in and point this out if I don't.

I don't worry about the blades being worn away. I've had the knives for years, and I can't see the wear yet.
 
Ray, can you elaborate a bit on the decision to gift the Horl?
Good question, schlotz, but I don't think my answer will be much help. Here's a bit of clarification.

I haven't used either system, but felt the roller system with a strong magnet holder offered a short learning curve and acceptable results for busy people who only need a decent edge. That said, I will probably use both systems on our next visit.

I gifted one daughter the WS. My other daughter gifted her husband the Horl because she bought him a nice santoku. I heard him trying the Horl on an older dull knife but he wasn't using enough pressure to develop a burl. I'll wait for him to ask for help it he doesn't figure it out.
 
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