Wonder Which Bread recipe would....

[mdboatbum]

One more question... I was thinking maybe I should use cake flour, or pastry flour, and not add the vital wheat gluten Mdboatbum taught me turns all purpose to bread flour.

Look, I'm learning stuff!

p.s.- my mom taught me to use all-purpose flour, and when a recipe calls for self rising, just add 1.5tsp baking powder and 0.5tsp salt. And Baking powder = 3 parts baking soda & 1 part tartar.

This advice has never failed me yet, although I've never made my own baking powder.

Not sure on that one. I'm basically bumping your question so maybe someone who knows more about this bread stuff might see it and provide an answer. I like your mom's ideas. There's nothing worse than wanting to make something and not having the right kind of flour. Years ago, we tried to make Yorkshire pudding with self rising flour as we'd run out of AP. Let's just say it didn't go too well. Remember that movie "The Blob"?...

 

[mdboatbum]

I couldn't find the purple and yellow sugar crystals around here.  Didn't want to make any at home....have the Green colored one.  Sweet talked one of the Baker ladies in Publix to let me "buy" some and she handed me 2 bags and said...here!  I spill more than that in a days time.  I have the decorative parts and a baby to put into it too!

Thanks for the recipe additions Chef Jimmy!

That's awesome!! Its so rare (around here anyway) when people are willing to go out of their way to help you out. Can't wait to hear how the cake turns out.

 

[candycoated]

Lady Kat, I couldn't find premade in purple and yellow either, so I bought the food color in purple, green, and yellow. Gonna try to make my own. Hope I dont end up with a big brown mess, wish me luck!

Well, it seems I'm gonna have'ta call super chemist Chef JimmyJ to the rescue, I bet he'd know if warm milk could be subbed for water.

 

[candycoated]

Not sure on that one. I'm basically bumping your question so maybe someone who knows more about this bread stuff might see it and provide an answer. I like your mom's ideas. There's nothing worse than wanting to make something and not having the right kind of flour. Years ago, we tried to make Yorkshire pudding with self rising flour as we'd run out of AP. Let's just say it didn't go too well. Remember that movie "The Blob"?...

Heck I have problems making pudding with AP flour, so I just cheat and use cornstarch.

FYI, I left out an important part of the equation my mother taught me: 1.5tsp + 0.5tsp salt per 1 cup of AP flour turns it in to Self-Rising.

 

[chef jimmyj]

Mel sent a PM so I thought you would all like to see my answer...

When we are making Bread of any type what captures the CO2 generated by the yeast is the Gluten Strands that form in the Flour when we add water and Mix/Knead it a lot. No water, No Gluten. The more Gluten the chewier the bread will be. Think Pizza or Italian Bread...Really Chewy, it is made with a High Gluten flour, Salt, Water and maybe a little EVOO for flavor, it is then Mixed and Kneaded for at least 15 minutes, a long time by Hand. In the store you would look for " Better for Bread " Flour. My fav is King Arthur Blue label. On the other end of the spectrum is things like Biscuits, Pie Crust and Cake. We Don't want them chewy we want Tender and Flakey. So in this case we use a Low Gluten Flour like Cake Flour or Pastry Flour, a small amount of Water and very little mixing, just enough until the dough comes together. Again I like King Arthur, comes in a box with a Brown Label. In between is All Purpose Flour, King Arthur Red Label, does a pretty good job in just about any recipe but you are going to sacrifice a little at both extreme ends, it's a Texture thing. Now, in All cases only use Unbleached Flours of any brand and if using a Generic look for one that lists Malted Barley as one of the ingredients, gives more flavor and is a food source for Yeast in bread baking, it will be most similar to the King Arthur's formula. Here is a link to see what I am talking about and the different labels...http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/ingredients/flours

There are a couple of other things that affect the Gluten and chewiness in Bread Dough. One is Whole Wheat Flour or grains containing Bran. The sharp edges of the Bran cut through the Gluten Strands and will make a Dense Bread and any type of Fat added will reduce the amount of Gluten Stands that form or " Shorten " the Gluten...That is where the Baking Term Shortening comes from. We add Shortining to things like Biscuits, Pie Dough and Cakes to make them more tender. Now Milk, Butter, Oil and Egg Yolks all contain Fat so adding them to a Bread dough will make it more Tender, they also add flavor and richness. In this particular situation we want to strike a Balance between Chewy, Rich and Tender. So a Bread Flour or All Purpose Flour is what you want for Chewiness then substituting in Milk for water and Egg Yolks with some Butter will Tenderize the dough and add a Rich Flavor.

Lastly, always add the Salt required because it is a Conditioner, makes gluten more stable, and enhances Flavor. Sugar makes the Dough Sweet but Brown Sugar and Honey are Hygroscopic aka Water Loving, so they help Bread and Sweet Doughs stay Moister and Fresher longer, you don't have to scarf the entire King Cake in one day. Honey also Browns at a lower temp so the Color of the bread crust is darker...

Oh Yeah...One more thing...Yeast comes in Three types. Fresh Cake Yeast (shape, not for cake), Active Dry Yeast and Rapid Rise aka Instant Yeast. Both Cake and Active Dry have to be dissolved in a portion of the Warm Water or Milk with a bit of sugar until all bubbly, it can then be mixed into the rest of the ingredients. Rapid Rise/Instant Yeast can go in with the dry ingredients and does not have to be dissolved first. Saves time. I have found Fleischmanns or Red Star Yeasts to be the Best...

You have just read most of the Day One Lecture of every Baking and Pastry Course in the world...

...JJ

 

[candycoated]

Wow, thank you for taking the time to write down the details Super Chemist Chef JimmyJ!

I really appreciate it.

I'm definitely gonna have to read this a couple time, or three... maybe four.

But lets see, milk will be okay to sub for water, but I need some water to proof the active dry yeast.

AP flour is fine to use, especially in king cake where you want it a bit chewy.

I'll also use light brown sugar. I like the fact that brown sugar has iron in. Because if you are gonna eat sugar calories may as well get something out of it. :)

I usually buy the big packages of gold medal AP flour at Sams, so I got a lot of it on hand. (But I will look into other flours now!)

It has malted barley, but it is bleached. So what's the reasoning behind using unbleached vs bleached?

 

[chef jimmyj]

Wow, thank you for taking the time to write down the details Super Chemist Chef JimmyJ!

I really appreciate it. No Problem.

I'm definitely gonna have to read this a couple time, or three... maybe four.

But lets see, milk will be okay to sub for water, but I need some water to proof the active dry yeast. No, just use a 1/4C of your warm, 110*F no higher, Milk and 1tsp of your Brn Sugar.

AP flour is fine to use, especially in king cake where you want it a bit chewy. Yes, AP is fine because King Cake is neither too chewy or too tender...

I'll also use light brown sugar. I like the fact that brown sugar has iron in. Because if you are gonna eat sugar calories may as well get something out of it. :)

I usually buy the big packages of gold medal AP flour at Sams, so I got a lot of it on hand. (But I will look into other flours now!)

It has malted barley, but it is bleached. So what's the reasoning behind using unbleached vs bleached? When fresh Wheat is milled into flour it is virtually Flavorless, yellowish in color and the Gluten forming Proteins are bound tight so the flour does not make good Bread, very dense from a weak structure. Over time the flour will Naturally age but the flour is not making money laying around waiting on nature to do it's thing. So just mix the newly milled flour with Potassium Bromate (while generally considered safe has caused Cancer in lab animals), Benzoyl Peroxide (eww, Acne Medicine) or Chlorine Dioxide and POOF! instant usable Bleached Flour. Problem is the bleaching process also destroys the Nutrients so the flour has to be " Enriched " artificially. Frankly naturally aged unbleached flour also tastes better. So that is why Pro Chef's and Bakers prefer to use Unbleached.  Go ahead and use up your Bleached Flour, it won't kill you, but now you know why sometimes Bread at the Bakery or at that Fancy Restaurant taste so good...JJ

 

[candycoated]

Ah, so I should apply the same reasoning that I use with brown sugar to flour. I think I understand!

JimmyJ, I can't say thank you enough. Lots of love coming your way!

I got a quote I think you'll like, about cancer causing things:

Poison is in everything, and no thing is without poison. The dosage makes it either a poison or a remedy. ~Paracelsus (the father of toxicology)

 

[chef jimmyj]

Melissa, You are correct! Bleached Flour is just way more processed. It is in 99% of anything commercially Baked, Bread and such, but given the choice and similar pricing go Unbleached. You may also consider Turbinado Sugar ( Sugar in the Raw) though more expensive it is a less processed natural form of Sugar. Even Brown Sugar is Cane or Sugar Beet Juice that is fully processed in to White Sugar...But Brown Sugar is made by mixing the rendered Molasses back into the White sugar to make it Brown. Turbinado is the cane juice having the water content reduced down until it crystallizes again simple and natural...JJ

 

[candycoated]

I may not have the flour but I got the sugar!

sugar cane syrup, molasses, light/dark corn syrup, honey, stevia (actually pretty good in hot/iced tea)

processed white, browns, powdered

turbinado, some other fancy raw sugar cane that is so "organic" it has little bits of plant schmutz in it- I assume not good for candy making because the foreign particles may seed a sugar crystal matrix.

I tried to learn a bit about sugar when I was on my quest to find the best sugar to caramelize on top of custard. It seemed large grain turbinado performed the best and white powdered sugar the worst.

 

[candycoated]

*warning- this is one of those learn from my mistakes post"

I made the King Cake... I thought it was an epic fail, but I finished what I started, and in the end it was edible, and to my surprise... tasty!

I made the colored sugar with processed white sugar. A larger granule would have made a prettier sprinkle.

IMG_0359.JPG

• candycoated
• Feb 2, 2013

I used Roller's Amish Bread recipe as the outline, and used all the substitutions and additions discussed in this thread.

• 2 c warm milk (110 degrees F/45 degrees C)
• 2/3 c light brown sugar
• 1 1/2 TBS active dry yeast
• 2 tsp salt
• 1/4 c butter
• 6 large egg yolks
• 6 c AP flour
• 1 TBS vital wheat gluten
• 2 tsp cinnamon powder
• 1 reserved egg white + 1TBS water whisked together for basting before baking

Filling (made the night before and stored in the fridge- applied cold):

• 16 oz cream cheese
• 1 c turbinado
• 1/4 tsp salt
• 2 tsp madagascar bourbon vanilla
• 1 egg
• 4 TBS AP flour

Icing:

• 2 c powdered white sugar
• 2 tsp madagascar bourbon vanilla
• added milk till right consistency... little over 2 TBS

I suggest cutting the recipe in half for one cake.

Yeah, I was thinking I could handle it, but... I was wrong. Ended up presenting the finished product on a cutting board because it was the only thing in my pantry that would accomdate.

Here's a pic after rolling out, filling, and pressing the ends together:

IMG_0362.JPG

• candycoated
• Feb 2, 2013

This is my greased "seasoned" cookie sheet. ;p 14 x 17

I had some trouble pinching the seams and ends together. During baking the filling seeped out on to the floor of my oven. I put some cake pans in the oven to catch the mess, but I'm still gonna need to clean my oven. :/

The first 20 minutes I baked it uncovered, then I needed to tent it with foil. Since it was leaking I didn't want to pull the oven rack out to make the tenting process easier. This resulted in a part of the cake not getting protected, and the crust burnt a bit:

IMG_0363.JPG

• candycoated
• Feb 3, 2013

BTW, that cheesecake type filling on the cookie sheet there tasted real good! ;p

(how you like those burnt ends? ;p)

At this point I almost threw it away, but decided to finish:

IMG_0365.JPG

• candycoated
• Feb 3, 2013

And a plated picture:

IMG_0366.JPG

• candycoated
• Feb 3, 2013

See? Not bad at all! :)

Any questions or critiques are welcome!

 

[kathrynn]

Lady Mel! I think you did good! I am going to try my hand today! You don't even want to see the floor of my oven! :biggrin::biggrin:

 

[candycoated]

Thank you Lady Kat. (hugs)

I think it's time to buy a new oven, one of them self cleaning ones. :)

BTW, I really think making the dough cinnamon flavor was a good call, definitely do that!

 

[kathrynn]

Thank you Lady Kat. (hugs)
I think it's time to buy a new oven, one of them self cleaning ones. :)

BTW, I really think making the dough cinnamon flavor was a good call, definitely do that!

I am probably going to do a cinnamon pecan filling. Hmmmmmmm :drool

 

[candycoated]

Mmmm, pecans are my favorite nut, and also my choice of wood to smoke with. :)

Please tell us about your cake when you're done. I'd love to see that cinnamon pecan filling.

 

[chef jimmyj]

Still looks great! I am curious as to what temp you baked at? 350*F is as high as I go with things like this. It lets the interior get done without burning the crust. Your choice of Cheese, while tasty, is too wet to to set properly before the moisture in the cheese turns to steam and causes a blow out. You can cut vent slits in the top that will help release the steam but the whole deal will probably collapse and not look as pretty. A more common Cheese Filling in baking is made with Farmer's Cheese, a dryer style of Small Curd Cottage Cheese or Riccotta. It is available in many parts of the country under the brand name Friendship Farmers Cheese. Here is a link to participating Stores...http://www.friendshipdairies.com/products/wheretobuy.html  You can also use the small curd Cottage Cheese or Riccotta but you must line a sieve with two layers of Cheese Cloth, place the cheese inside and top with a 1 lb weight and let drain overnight. You get a nice dry yet crumbly cheese to work with. You can also make your own Farmers Cheese if you wish, Yes I will give you my Recipe! The Cheese is then mixed with Sugar, Egg Yolk, Vanilla, Lemon Zest and Flour to help bind into a creamy yet firm filling...I hope you enjoy this...JJ

Cheese Filling

2C Farmers Cheese

2ea Egg Yolks

1/2C Sugar, more if you want it sweeter.

3T AP Flour 

1/2 tsp Vanilla Extract

Lemon Zest to Taste, Optional

Fold together, gently, until well combined. Refrigerate until ready to use.

Farmers Cheese

1Gal Whole Milk

1Qt Buttermilk

3T White Vinegar

1-2T Kosher Salt, taste the milk, should be salty but not harsh

Place the Milk and Salt in a heavy bottom pot and heat Low and Slow to 185*F or just begins to simmer. Turn off heat.

Add the Buttermilk then Vinegar and slowly stir just until the curd start to form. Leave the whole deal rest 30 minutes, with out touching.

Line a large Sieve with 2 layers of Cheesecloth about 12" Square. Place the Sieve over a wide pot. Using a slotted spoon or small sieve, Gently lift the Curds from the Whey and place in the cheesecloth.

Allow to drain 5 minutes then fold the cheesecloth to cover the Cheese. Top with a 1 Lb weight, I use a bowl with 2C water, and let drain at least 1 hour or overnight in the refer.

The Cheese is now ready to use in any recipe the calls for Farmers Cheese, Cottage Cheese or Riccotta...I have used it in Lasagna and Cheese Pierogi...You can even eat it as a Spread on Bagels with Smoked Salmon and Onion or on Toast sprinkled with Cinnamon Sugar or Honey. Mix in finely minced Garlic, Chives, Thyme or any Herbs you like for a homemade Garlic Cheese Spread...

Yields is about 1 Lb or about 2 cups Cheese that will keep 5 days covered in the refer.

 

[bonnie b]

I had never heard of a "king cake".  Googled it and it looks very interesting (and lots of stuffing options)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_cake

Me neither....so thanx for savin me havin to Google...lol. Learned a lot!

 

[bonnie b]

Yum yum yum yum YUMMMMM!!!! That cheese sounds de-lish!!! This darn thread has made me hungry...lol.  

And I bookmarked this page for the weath of info from Chef JJ.  So much science to baking...who knew?

 

[chef jimmyj]

Bonnie, In the Pro world, Most Bakers can cook and work a variety of stations, Saute, Grill, Veg and such. But very few Chef's can Bake. Bakers must create and follow Formulas precisely but Chef's follow Recipes, often embellishing with their own touches or measuring by eye. If a Baker tries deviating, the Cake falls or the Pie Crust is tough...JJ

 

[candycoated]

Hey bonnie b :) I like your enthusiasm, nice to meet you.

Candy can be difficult too.

Chef JimmyJ- I baked at 350*. The picture came out darker than it really was, it looks black in the pic but was more like dark brown. The dark spots were actually palatable with icing, it was the dry texture of that section that was really unsatisfactory.

Wow, thank you for the lessons in cheese. I will try it.

What can I do with the whey? I know I've seen whey protein listed on the nutrition label of some products. Can I freeze it?

Got any cooking textbook suggestions? Forget cookbooks, I want instructions like you give em!