When to use binders?

[Warren F]

Hi all, thanks for this great forum! It’s truly a beauty!

I’ve scoured posts in here and found great info on binders for smoking sausage. I’m specifically interested in using Non fat powdered dairy milk(NFPDM) or Knox Gelatin powder. Can’t decide which one yet. I Have both.

1) My question is how to introduce either of these two products?

2) And WHEN to introduce them?

3) I’ve read here that when using gelatin, stay within 0.5%-2.0% max meat weight, but how much NFPDM would I use if I use that instead of gelatin?

What I’ve done so far)
Ground up 5.5 pounds of pork shoulder.
Ground up 1.8 pounds eye of round roast.
Put in desired seasonings and brown sugar, along with 7.25 grams of cure #1 and 4oz of water. It was ground fine and thoroughly
mixed in a meat tub by hand and with a hand mixer as well. I then transferred the meat mix to a bowl and placed it in the fridge. In 12 hrs (I feel is when I also remix with gelatin or NFPDM)I will stuff it into a 3” casing and smoke it for 5hrs at 120f. Then transfer to a 170°f water bath and pull it out when the IT reaches 160°f. I’ve read not to put gelatin in till you are going to smoke it then cook. So really now I have to clean my Kitchener electric grinder/stuffer twice in 12 hours.

4) Could I have added gelatin when I did the original processing? Then letting it sit in the fridge stuffed for 12hrs that is?

5) Could I have used NFPDM at original processing stage and let sit 12hr in the fridge stuffed?

I’m new to this so any help is so greatly appreciated. I honestly read for hours hoping to find the answers but was not finding any definitive luck.

Thanks for your time,

Warren...

 

[chef jimmyj]

Welcome. ..
1) NFDM can be sprinkled over the meat or mixed with liquid. Gelatin is Bloomed in a portion of the liguid, see box instructions. You need to hydrate it before mixing with the remaining liquid .

2) Nfdm can be added with the rest of the seasoning. Bloomed Gelatin mixes into remaining liquid and added right before the final mix and case stuffing.

3) Use 1/2C Nfdm per 5 pounds of meat. In this case use 3/4C of Nfdm. No need to be precise.

4) Yes, you can add Gelatin with the seasoning IF you are going to stuff right away. Resting the bulk sausage with gelatin mixed in, would result in a solid block of ground meat the next day.

5) You can add Nfdm any timetime. It does nothing until cooked...JJ

 

[BGKYSmoker]

Pnfdm can be used as a binder and a flavor enhancer just like powdered buttermilk (fermento)

I dont care for gelatin myself.

Hey but if you mix your meat right you dont need any binder.....EH

 

[HalfSmoked]

There you go that's the great thing about this forum you ask and somebody will be along to help you. You've heard from 2 of the leaders on this forum in my book.

Warren

 

[Warren F]

Thanks for this guys. Huge help. JJ, awesome detailed response. I’m so happy to try pnfdm. I also have enough casings to try a test out. With JJ’s recommended dosage, I’ll do the 1/2c to 5 lbs of my mix, then with the remaining 2.3 lbs, I’ll just stuff it without PNFDM. Then I can get a side by side comparison test with and without PNFDM. Will be the answer to how well it’s mixed I guess Nepas!? Now I assume Nepas you mean fat ratio mix and not my electric/hand mixing skills? A little extra info on meat I used is the Costco 2 pack of eye of round, and the pork shoulder 2 pack (picked best marbling I could) from Costco as well. Didn’t cut a single thing off anything that I didn’t use. Just ground it all up.

Thanks all again,

Warren...

 

[Warren F]

You bet Brother Warren. Ask and you shall receive. And by masters! Made my day!

War...

 

[Warren F]

So in light of my process I’m doing (5hrs smoke to water bath finish) I don’t want to mislead this thread, but I plan on posting all results so maybe I’ll ask in case someone wants to follow the same process.

For a water bath)

1) Do I just submerge the stuffed casing right in a pot of temp controlled water? Or do I open top bag them then submerge? Leaving the bag taller outside the water so my probe can go in without getting wet?

2) I wonder because my 4probe inkbird temp monitor states not to get water in the probe casing. Trying to think a workaround.

War...

 

[Warren F]

Oh and,

3) is it necessary to agitate water in the pot to help keep temps in the water bath column even?

4) is the sous vide best recommended for this method of water bathing? I’ll go buy it if people think it’s good?

Thanks,

War...

 

[daveomak]

Mix the meat until it get sticky.... REALLY sticky....

 

[Warren F]

Awesome! Yup, mine is just like that! I used the kitchenaid mixer (cuz it will do 5lbs of meat) and blended in the pnfdm real well. I feel I could turn the mixing bowl upside down like a Dairy Queen blizzard and it doesn’t even budge or make a sound. Not that I actually would, but I bet I could. Touching it looks just like your pic Dave. Thanks.

War...

 

[daveomak]

Iffin your mix comes out like that, you won't need much NFDM and you probably wouldn't need any....
If you have problems with "fat-out"... try smoking the sausage to a lower temperature like 140 F... Smoker temp 160 ish...
Follow the pasteurization table to make it safe to eat... Killing all the bacteria etc....
Once the meat gets to 140 ish. I would hold it there for an hour or so to insure complete destruction of bacteria...
OR, if you have a sous vide, or electric roaster, fill it with water and heat to 140... submerge the sausage until they get to 140 and hold for an hour...
The lower temperature will prevent fat out... and dry sausage...

 

[Warren F]

So I just did my mini patty fry test for spice before stuffing in case something in my custom spice blend was off. I did one patty that contained NFDM, and one with no NFDM added. The internal color looks different but I think the camera is to blame there. They were very similar in color. For taste and texture, I really could not taste a difference. I also noticed that not much fat rendered out of either. Please note I did spray the pan lightly with cooking spray as well.

 

[Warren F]

Thanks Dave,

So I’m going to go buy a sous vide right now. Can you place the stuffed sausage right into the water? Or should it go in a bag in the water?

Thanks,

War...

Iffin your mix comes out like that, you won't need much NFDM and you probably wouldn't need any....
If you have problems with "fat-out"... try smoking the sausage to a lower temperature like 140 F... Smoker temp 160 ish...
Follow the pasteurization table to make it safe to eat... Killing all the bacteria etc....
Once the meat gets to 140 ish. I would hold it there for an hour or so to insure complete destruction of bacteria...
OR, if you have a sous vide, or electric roaster, fill it with water and heat to 140... submerge the sausage until they get to 140 and hold for an hour...
The lower temperature will prevent fat out... and dry sausage...


View attachment 379882

 

[daveomak]

If you use natural casings, they can go in the water... Amazon has some on sale... I heard Wal Mart had some on close out too...
I would skip the blue tooth and stuff like that... Usually, you turn it on... set the time and temp.... and go away from 4-48 hours... A cooler works good... Someone on here had a great thread of how they did it... Drilled a tight fit hole in the lid.. add water.... add vac packed meat or sausages and done... even if you go over an hour or 2, the meat doesn't overcook..
Doug Baldwin researched and calculated all the stuff for us... Don't listen to blog or forum recipes... always check back to Baldwins work....
http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html

I tried the cooler first... it was too small but did the job... now I've got a cambro tub with an air tight lid... I think the cooler is better... Cost was about the same.. I still have to make a cooler for it... I want to sous vide a brisket packer... My tub is great for chicken and beef cheeks and sausage...
I think an insulated cooler up to 10 gallons would work, due to the insulation value...
A few days ago there was some discussion on cooler size and wattage of the sous vide...
My MES smoker is 800 watts and heats my smoker above 275 sooooo, try and relate that to an insulated cooler and water at 170 for 2 days... I really don't think it's a problem...

 

[indaswamp]

max. 4% by weight of NFDM powder. I never use that much...it's a lot of powdered milk.

 

[Warren F]

Update,

So I bought the sous vide and did the cooler mod. Working good I think. I smoked the logs for 5.5 hrs and the Smoker cab temp ramped to 111°f over the five or so hours while smoking. Internal temp was at 108°f when checked after the 5.5hrs smoke. I then transferred the logs to the sous vide cooler that’s water temp was also at 108°f. I’ve set the sous vide to 140°f and in one hour in the cooler, the water temp is matching the set temp. Time to remove and check IT temps.

1) I’m so unsure what the internal temp of the logs are cuz they are vac sealed. Are they at 140°f as well?

I left an extra foot of vac bag on the logs so I can cut it open and check the IT. This allows me to re seal the vac bag without compromising the bag. Just gets a bit shorter I guess.

Here’s some pics, I better tend to this. Kinda live posting at this point.

Thanks everybody, this wasn’t possible without your help.

War...

 

[Warren F]

Here’s a peek inside and at the controller. Does this mean it’s IT may be at 140°f? It’s beeping continuously. Remember I just bought this sous vide. I’m gonna pull a bag and cut it open and check an IT. Stay tuned.

P.S.
the foil tape was used to seal off the coolers internal foam. Felt like not leaving it exposed for some reason. Tomorrow in pour a mold to fit the sous vide perfectly. Just didn’t have the time today.

 

[Warren F]

ok, so checking the IT of the meat after it held 140f for 22 min yielded an IT of 127f. I ramped the sous vide up to 160f and will check the it when the numbers on the controller match. Doesn't seem to take long for the water to creep up at all. This cooler mod seems like a good thing for large water baths.

War...

 

[Warren F]

Update

beeped at 160f, pulled out the vac bag and cut it open to check IT. It was at 137f. Re vac sealed and put back in cooler mod. Raised controller temp to 172f. Again im posting this as it happens...

 

[daveomak]

You can leave the SV at 140.... that will prevent fat out.... Now..... you have to use the table for the thickness of the salami to determine how long to leave the salami in the SV at 142... those logs look like 3"... So, using the 3" diameter, heating time from 38F to 1 deg below set temp on the SV is 3-3/4 hours...
Pasteurization time at meat temperature of 140, with SV at 142 for a 3" log is about 4 hours hold time... I would hold at the ~140 temp for 5 hours to be extra safe....
follow Baldwins recipes for SV cooking... add some time to be safe....
http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html#Table_2.2
If you have any questions about his stuff, PM me or ask here... I will be sure to get PM's...