SV Pickling?

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illini40

Smoking Fanatic
Original poster
Feb 12, 2017
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Good morning

I have seen a few things about using SV to make pickles and pickles any veggies.

Has anyone tried this? I am not seeing a ton of info out there.

Most are showing 140* for 2.5 hours ish. I’m not following if they are ready right away nor about how this differs from using the FoodSaver vacuum seal methods or traditional canning/preserving.
 
Not sure either, we always use the foodsaver vacuum method now. But looking forward to see what you get for responses.

Ryan
 
Interesting. Agree not much out there. Does say it creates a shelf stable product. Might be a good way to get into canning. Hopefully someone on here has tried it.
 
I have not seen anyone explicitly guarantee shelf stability. However, it seems like it is implied that if the seal is good (no pop), it should be fairly stable.

I’m not necessarily concerned about shelf stability. I’m interested in the quality of the product and how quickly the pickling would be effective (meaning how quick you could enjoy).
 
Depends on what you’re after. I’d be curious to see the recipe. Done lots of pickles, but no sous vide. (Just got my Anova Premier yesterday.)

“Pickle” can be lots of things. Could be a verb or any one of multiple different nouns.

While SV could make shelf stable “pickles”, I would expect the process to negatively effect texture. (Again, no experience.)

However, we make something we call 5 minute pickles at my house that don’t require the SV and are ready overnight(sadly, not actually five minutes). I also make fermented pickles: half sours in 2-4 days, full sours in a week or so. I could see where potentially a SV could make those faster, but faster with fermentation generally makes an inferior product, sometimes downright bad.

I’d have more input from the pickling side if I saw the recipe.

jbo
 
Depends on what you’re after. I’d be curious to see the recipe. Done lots of pickles, but no sous vide. (Just got my Anova Premier yesterday.)

“Pickle” can be lots of things. Could be a verb or any one of multiple different nouns.

While SV could make shelf stable “pickles”, I would expect the process to negatively effect texture. (Again, no experience.)

However, we make something we call 5 minute pickles at my house that don’t require the SV and are ready overnight(sadly, not actually five minutes). I also make fermented pickles: half sours in 2-4 days, full sours in a week or so. I could see where potentially a SV could make those faster, but faster with fermentation generally makes an inferior product, sometimes downright bad.

I’d have more input from the pickling side if I saw the recipe.

jbo

Thank you for the thoughts.

Here are a couple of the recipes I saw on Pintrest. I would be curious what you or others think.



 
I’m a little skeptical of these as shelf stable mostly because the ‘old’ methods are tried and true and SV has apparently not seen much use in this vein. Also, one of those recipes says ‘shelf stable’ but then says they’ll keep in the fridge for six months. I’m guessing they’d be OK, but see little to no advantage over traditionally made hot pack pickles. -and, though I have no basis, I expect texture would suffer. Try it and see.

From a ‘pickle’ standpoint, all of these recipes look fine and should be fine made as an “instant pickle” style. You could make up a jar any time you want, refrigerate, and enjoy. No need to heat treat at all.

Jbo
 
I’m a little skeptical of these as shelf stable mostly because the ‘old’ methods are tried and true and SV has apparently not seen much use in this vein. Also, one of those recipes says ‘shelf stable’ but then says they’ll keep in the fridge for six months. I’m guessing they’d be OK, but see little to no advantage over traditionally made hot pack pickles. -and, though I have no basis, I expect texture would suffer. Try it and see.

From a ‘pickle’ standpoint, all of these recipes look fine and should be fine made as an “instant pickle” style. You could make up a jar any time you want, refrigerate, and enjoy. No need to heat treat at all.

Jbo

Thank you for the insight. This is what I was expecting. However, I’m not looking for shelf stable...I’m just looking for quick, easy pickles to keep on the fridge and snack on relatively quickly.

How long do you think they would need to sit before eating?
 
Depending on water content, firmness, and size, anywhere from 24 hours to two weeks.

We use sliced cucumbers and onions for what we call five minute pickles and they are “ready” in less than 24 hours. If not eaten within a week, they start to soften, but are still OK to eat. They rarely last more than a couple of days, though.

When I do pickled carrots, I try to make them at least two weeks ahead. Three is better.

Jbo
 
However, I’m not looking for shelf stable...I’m just looking for quick, easy pickles to keep on the fridge and snack on relatively quickly.
Use search for Steve H vacuumed pickles. He has a few different variations. Have made previously, very good.
 
The site stated, " Place the jar in the water bath and cook for 2 to 3 hours. "
That just doesn't sound like an exacting science to me. I'm all for new methods. But I'm not sure about that.
If these do actually get to a "shelf stable" state. Then there should be a vacuum present in the jar. Which would reduce the wait time. Probably around the same as using a vac saver vacuum sealer. Which is about a week.
 
I am giving the SV pickles a try today. We’ll see how they turn out. The plan is 2.5 hours at 140*.

Some of the recipes seem like they are eating them right away. Since I have two jars, I’m thinking we will try one jar fairly quick (maybe yet tonight or tomorrow) and then the other jar after a week or so.

9CF7AC39-319C-4B42-8150-1793056D9BD8.jpeg
 
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I have not seen anyone explicitly guarantee shelf stability. However, it seems like it is implied that if the seal is good (no pop), it should be fairly stable.
The site stated, " Place the jar in the water bath and cook for 2 to 3 hours. "
That just doesn't sound like an exacting science to me. I'm all for new methods. But I'm not sure about that.
If these do actually get to a "shelf stable" state. Then there should be a vacuum present in the jar. Which would reduce the wait time. Probably around the same as using a vac saver vacuum sealer. Which is about a week.

HOLD IT !!!!

Under vacuum is the perfect environment for the botulism bacteria to thrive and multiply... The same goes for anything you want to put in a jar, vac seal and store....

It takes around 245F or so, for an extended period of time in a canning jar, to get the center of the jar to kill temperature for a certain amount of time to do in the botulism spores...

Folks, don't screw with stuff the scientists perfected methods for...
The reason for so "few" botulism deaths in the USA is.....
Nitrite/Nitrate curing of meats and pressure canning...

When this celery juice craze/fad causes it's first death, the conversion of celery nitrate to nitrite and subsequent analysis of the amount nitrite and it's quality will be in the court explaining what may have gone awry...
They do try to provide "insurance" in their process by "doubling" the normal amount of nitrite one would normally add using cure#1... Has anyone seen a nitrite amount on a celery nitrite package ???
You won't find celery nitrite in my curing stuff...

Curing Meats with Celery Juice Powder
Conventional curing with nitrates/nitrites. Marianski
We have been used nitrates for thousands of years. How did we discover nitrates is a matter to speculation, they were most likely discovered by accident by the use of salt that happened to be contaminated with potassium nitrate (commonly known as saltpeter, one of the three ingredients that was used for making gunpowder). We did not know why, but we knew that meat treated with certain salts retained a red color, developed a characteristic taste and lasted longer. Later, we discovered, that meat treated with nitrates was less susceptible to contamination with disease-causing bacteria, particularly the very dangerous Clostridium botulinum, also known as food poisoning bacteria.

By the 1980s it became apparent that meat contained certain bacteria that were capable of converting nitrates into nitrites and that nitrites were the agents that were responsible for changing the characteristics of meat which is described today as “curing.” To cure means to add nitrite and/or nitrate with salt to a meat to preserve it. If only salt is added the meat is just salted and not cured. Sodium nitrite is a safe, government-approved ingredient that gives cured meats their characteristic color and flavor.

In the 1970’s it was discovered that frying bacon on high heat can form carcinogenic nitrosamines which might be detrimental to our health. This created a lot of panic and in the 1970’s there was extensive research about the harmful effects of nitrates on our health. Millions of dollars were spent, a lot of research was done, many researchers had spent long sleepless nights seeking fame and glory, but no evidence was found that when nitrates are used within the established limits, they can pose any danger to our health. A review of all scientific literature on nitrite by the National Research Council of the National Academy of Sciences indicates that nitrite does not directly harm us in any way. To protect the customer a new nitrite limits were established and the new law prohibits adding more than 120 ppm (parts per million) of sodium nitrite to pork belly that will be processed into bacon. Adding nitrate to bacon is not allowed.

What was also discovered was that all that talk about the danger of nitrite in our meat’s pales in comparison with the amounts of nitrates that are found in vegetables that we consume every day. It is estimated that about 90% of all nitrates we acquire from vegetables. (link) Nitrates are present in soil in which vegetables grow, but the get even more nitrates from the fertilizers which are used in agriculture. Ever heard of ammonia nitrate fertilizer… everybody knows this name. Don’t blame sausages for the nitrates you consume, blame the farmer. It is more dangerous to one’s health to eat vegetables on a regular basis than a sausage.



The invention of celery powder
At first glimpse, curing meats with celery powder instead nitrites seem a wonderful idea, however, celery and other vegetables contain the same nitrate that we have been adding to meats for centuries. It is simply a different way of packaging nitrate. In order to expand sales, producers came up with variety of “natural” and “organic” processed meats employing the catchy slogan such as “no synthetic preservatives” or “no nitrites added.” Those phrases cannot replace the crucial role nitrites play in processed meats; they just replace the source of the nitrite. The latest fad of adding natural sources of nitrite to meat has little to do with protecting consumer, it is all about marketing a different product in order to make money. It is hard to blame an average consumer for believing that if the label says no nitrate/nitrite added, the product is healthier. However, there is another sentence on the label marked with asterisk * which should be read as well: “no nitrites or nitrates added”: *except for those naturally occurring nitrates and nitrites in celery powder.

Currently USDA regulations require that meats cured with celery juice powder to be called “uncured” to distinguish them from conventionally cured products. Labels of meats cured with celery powder often say “no nitrates or nitrites added,” but also contain a statement “other than those which naturally occur in celery powder.” This is a confusing statement because celery powder contains nitrite and if nitrite is added the meat is de facto cured. It is like reading a legal contract, the most important information is hidden behind a small print.

Celery is very rich in natural nitrate, and treating celery juice with a bacterial culture produces nitrite. The concentrated juice can then be added to produce “no nitrite added” meat. Celery powder is allowable as an organic ingredient, but what is interesting is that the celery itself does not have to be organic. Celery powder is made by dehydrating, concentrating, and grinding down the stalks of celery. Non-organic celery is ranked 11th on the Environmental Working Group’s Dirty Dozen list of vegetables that, when grown conventionally, absorb the highest levels of pesticides.

The official regulations state clearly that the traditional curing process requires the addition of nitrite and thus “organic” processed meats that are treated with celery juice must be labeled as “uncured.” A number of meat industry companies and meat associations have petitioned the United Stated Department of Agriculture asking to for permission to use the word “cured” on the label, however, the USDA has been reluctant to do it so far, as they are still researching the influence of celery nitrite on safety of the products. Nitrite gives meat not only their characteristic color and flavor, meat oxidation that leads to fat rancidity and it inhibits growth of pathogenic bacteria such as including Listeria monocytogenes, Clostridium perfringens and Clostridium botulinum. Nitrite is the most effective agent to prevent spores of Clostridium botulinum, also known as food poisoning, from producing toxin which is recognized as the worst toxin there is.

Nitrite which is present in celery powder develops meat’s color and flavor, inhibits oxidation, but it has not been determined yet how effective it is against Clostridium botulinum. This is the main reason why the USDA is hesitant to use the term “cured” for meats that contain natural nitrite that is found in celery and other vegetables. Additional studies are needed to fully define the ability of natural cure ingredients to inhibit foodborne pathogens.



Why Celery
Vegetables which contain most nitrite is spinach, beetroot, lettuces, celery then in smaller amounts cabbages, potatoes, carrots. Some vegetables like beets and carrots have a lot of natural pigment and can affect the color of meat. Others have stronger flavor and will leave a vegetable undertaste in meat. We could use beet juice to make hot dogs, however, the color will be unusual. After careful studies and trials, it has been determined that celery juice was most suitable for meat products as it did not alter much the finished product flavor or appearance.

Conclusion
To sum it up “nitrite is nitrite” it does not really matter where does it come from. Nitrite hidden in celery powder, celery juice or in other vegetables is not healthier than conventional nitrite known as Cure #1, pink salt, or Prague powder 1 that we have been adding to meats. Saying “no nitrates or nitrites added, other than those which naturally occur in celery powder” is just a different way of packaging nitrite. The undisputed fact is that vegetables do contain nitrites, sometimes in lesser, sometimes in greater amounts than found in conventional products. That’s because the amount of nitrite that forms from nitrate in celery juice is difficult to evaluate, while in conventionally cured meats, the addition of nitrite can be precisely controlled.


How much celery juice powder to add to meat is difficult to evaluate. Too much celery powder may induce vegetable flavor and aroma which may lead to a lower acceptance of the product, since most consumers will object to vegetable flavor in a sausage. Adding too little will not cure meat properly and may even create a safety hazard. It has been generally accepted that adding 0.2% - 0.4% celery juice powder to meat will deliver satisfactory results. Recommended usage: 0.2% - 0.4% Celery Juice Powder of total weight of ground meat will bring sausage to 100 - 200ppm nitrite. Approximately 1 oz per 20 lbs. Meat.

“There is little evidence that preserving meats using celery … is any healthier than other added nitrites,” Dariush Mozaffarian, dean of the Friedman School of Nutrition Science & Policy at Tufts University, told New Food Economy. “Until industry provides strong evidence that nitrites in celery juice have different biologic effects than nitrites from other sources, it’s very misleading to label these [products] as ‘nitrite free’ or to consider such processed meats as being healthier.”

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Yup! That was my thought too Dave. Though at 140 for 2.5 hours had me wondering if this would really work.
 
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I am digging now off and on and a few sites say USDA is recommending 185F for 30m for SV pickles but cannot find a cite.
 
I am digging now off and on and a few sites say USDA is recommending 185F for 30m for SV pickles but cannot find a cite.



Yep. 185F for 3 minutes kills the bacteria.... BUT ... Any spores from the bacteria will not die until they get to pressure canner temps for recommended time... That's ~145F for 3-5 minutes or something close...
Then there's the center of the jar... not the top, not the bottom, not next to the glass BUT in the center...
 
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