SV - Bologna smoked, in ice bath...confirm SV time temp?

[SherryT]

I made the "American Bologna" recipe from meatsandsausages.com, stuffed it into a "standard" fibrous bologna casing (over 4" diameter), and cold smoked it for 3 hours (half hickory/half apple)...it's not resting in an ice bath.

As I bought my SV machine primarily for this purpose (finishing), I've been doing a LOT of reading online about time/temps/thickness, the meat "shape" (slab/cylinder/sphere), etc and I "think" I should finish this bologna at 155F for 4 hours...does this sound right?

There's a LOT of info online about steaks/chops/etc, but you have to really DIG to find much about finishing.

I guess I can seal the chub in a ziploc so I can check the IT during the cook...beef ain't cheap nowadays and I don't want to mess this up, KWIM?

Thanks!

 

[SmokinEdge]

I SV MY 5” bologna right out of the smoker usually IT is 100-120F I run the SV at 151F to finish and I’m usually never longer than a couple hours then I ice it down. Icing before finishing is counter productive in my view and serves no purpose. At any rate, 4 hours should get you close to final temp.

 

[DougE]

I SV MY 5” bologna right out of the smoker usually IT is 100-120F I run the SV at 151F to finish and I’m usually never longer than a couple hours then I ice it down. Icing before finishing is counter productive in my view and serves no purpose. At any rate, 4 hours should get you close to final temp.

What he said. Any sausages I smoke, then finish in SV go directly from the smoker into the SV. I run the SV 151-152° and just soak long enough for the IT to get to those temps, then cold water/ice bath.

 

[SherryT]

Thanks for the replies...it's in the water. I opted to not use a bag so I can get to it easier to check the temp (which I'll do at the 2 hour mark).

Still wrapping my head around this thing...forgive my ignorance (and the barrage of questions that will surely follow in the days ahead!).

 

[DougE]

Still wrapping my head around this thing...forgive my ignorance (and the barrage of questions that will surely follow in the days ahead!).

To sort of quote my friend, you can't know something until you know it.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Here is a link to the Baldwin charts for SV time and temp, this really is the most thorough chart for SV time/temp for thickness and meat type. It’s long but just scroll through, lots of great info here.

https://douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html#Beef

 

[SherryT]

OK, at 2 hours in, IT is 146F...and it squirted a LOT of juice when I stuck it!

Onward!

 

[DougE]

They tend to squirt right good when you jab 'em with a temp probe.

 

[daveomak]

OK, at 2 hours in, IT is 146F...and it squirted a LOT of juice when I stuck it!

Onward!

Just checkin'... If you are looking to SV at 146 to pasteurize the meat, the Internal Temp must be at the noted temp for the noted time...
Just to be sure, that time is not the time in the bath...
I'd hate to see you get sick doing this SV stuff....

 

[DanMcG]

Well, how did it come out?

 

[SherryT]

It did end up taking 4 hours to reach 155F IT via SV (but, as I stated earlier, I chilled it after smoking...I'd read so many recipes/methods and that got stuck in my mind I guess!).

The TASTE is good...tastes like beef bologna (but needs a snitch more salt and garlic if you ask me).

I think the new FP handled the emulsification nicely, but I did grind it twice (once through the 1/4" plate and then through the 1/8").

The texture, however, is "spongy" (literally, it's like a sponge...when I fried a slice, it absorbed ALL of the oil in the skillet and when I pressed the fried slice with the fork, the oil would squeeze out)...but I "think" I know why (will get to that after the recipe).

So, here's the recipe:

Meats	Metric	US
Beef trimmings	750 g	1.55 lb
Pork trimmings	200 g	0.44 lb
Pork back fat or hard fat trimmings	50 g	0.11 lb

Ingredients per 1000g (1 kg) of meat​

Salt	18 g	3 tsp
Cure #1	2.5 g	1/2 tsp
White pepper	2.0 g	1 tsp
Coriander	1.0 g	1 tsp
Paprika, sweet	1.0 g	1 tsp
Nutmeg	0.5 g	1/4 tsp
Garlic	3.0 g	1 clove
Potato flour	50 g	1.7 oz
Cold water	240 ml	1 cup

Instructions​

1. Grind beef through 3/8” (10 mm) plate.
2. Grind pork through 3/8” (10 mm) plate.
3. Grind fat through 3/8” (10 mm) plate.
4. Using food processor emulsify beef with half of water. Then add as follows: pork plus salt, cure #1 and spices-fat -flour. Keep on slowly adding the remaining water as emulsifying process continues.
5. Stuff into beef bungs, beef middles or large diameter cellulose or fibrous casings.
6. Hang in 4º C (38º F) overnight or for 2-3 hours at room temperature.
7. Apply smoke at 46º C (115º F) for 3 hours.
8. Cook in water at around 72° C (160° F) for 60-90 min according to thickness until sausages reach 68-70° C (154-158° F) inside.
9. After cooking place sausages for about 10 min in cold water, cool them in air and refrigerate.

END OF RECIPE

So, self-diagnosis:

These instructions do NOT say to chill after smoking/before SV. As I said above, that was me getting in my own way after having read WAY too many recipes/methods in a short period of time and I guess it was a step that got "stuck" in my head.

That it needs more salt/garlic is simply a taste preference.

Now, for that "spongy" texture...note the recipe calls for "potato flour". As I didn't HAVE potato flour, I looked online for a substitution as it pertains to sausage making and found a couple of sources that said I could run instant potato flakes through my spice grinder and voila...potato flour.

Obviously, that was wrong...in my eagerness to make bologna, I failed to account for how instant potatoes SWELL when re-hydrated. In essence, I think THAT'S what caused the spongy texture.

Takeaways:

1) FOLLOW THE RECIPE, but if you must make substitutions, THINK about what you already know about the ingredient BEFORE you jump the gun due to your enthusiasm.

2) Use smaller casings for bologna...it is NOT necessary that it be the same size as commercial bologna (and I did NOT enjoy dealing with that big, HONKIN' casing...at ALL). I have a couple dozen 2.5" clear fibrous...2.5" bologna tastes the same as 4.5" bologna.

3) Did I mention "enthusiasm above? Yes I did...and I need to CURB it!

4) I have a LOT more to learn about making sausage than I thought I did.

Whatcha think?

 

[cutplug]

I am getting ready to do my first Bologna also. Thank for showing your process and trial and tribulations!
That is great insight as to the instant potatoes causing the texture issue.
It looks a little like liverwurst but that is not a bad thing.
I think you can also sub NFDM (non fat dry milk) for the flour but I sure some wurstmasters can clarify.
For a first time I think you did a great job and again thanks for posting.

 

[Dave in AZ]

It did end up taking 4 hours to reach 155F IT via SV (but, as I stated earlier, I chilled it after smoking...I'd read so many recipes/methods and that got stuck in my mind I guess!).

View attachment 648237

The TASTE is good...tastes like beef bologna (but needs a snitch more salt and garlic if you ask me).

I think the new FP handled the emulsification nicely, but I did grind it twice (once through the 1/4" plate and then through the 1/8").

The texture, however, is "spongy" (literally, it's like a sponge...when I fried a slice, it absorbed ALL of the oil in the skillet and when I pressed the fried slice with the fork, the oil would squeeze out)...but I "think" I know why (will get to that after the recipe).

So, here's the recipe:

Meats	Metric	US
Beef trimmings	750 g	1.55 lb
Pork trimmings	200 g	0.44 lb
Pork back fat or hard fat trimmings	50 g	0.11 lb

Ingredients per 1000g (1 kg) of meat​

Salt	18 g	3 tsp
Cure #1	2.5 g	1/2 tsp
White pepper	2.0 g	1 tsp
Coriander	1.0 g	1 tsp
Paprika, sweet	1.0 g	1 tsp
Nutmeg	0.5 g	1/4 tsp
Garlic	3.0 g	1 clove
Potato flour	50 g	1.7 oz
Cold water	240 ml	1 cup

Instructions​

1. Grind beef through 3/8” (10 mm) plate.
2. Grind pork through 3/8” (10 mm) plate.
3. Grind fat through 3/8” (10 mm) plate.
4. Using food processor emulsify beef with half of water. Then add as follows: pork plus salt, cure #1 and spices-fat -flour. Keep on slowly adding the remaining water as emulsifying process continues.
5. Stuff into beef bungs, beef middles or large diameter cellulose or fibrous casings.
6. Hang in 4º C (38º F) overnight or for 2-3 hours at room temperature.
7. Apply smoke at 46º C (115º F) for 3 hours.
8. Cook in water at around 72° C (160° F) for 60-90 min according to thickness until sausages reach 68-70° C (154-158° F) inside.
9. After cooking place sausages for about 10 min in cold water, cool them in air and refrigerate.

END OF RECIPE

So, self-diagnosis:

These instructions do NOT say to chill after smoking/before SV. As I said above, that was me getting in my own way after having read WAY too many recipes/methods in a short period of time and I guess it was a step that got "stuck" in my head.

That it needs more salt/garlic is simply a taste preference.

Now, for that "spongy" texture...note the recipe calls for "potato flour". As I didn't HAVE potato flour, I looked online for a substitution as it pertains to sausage making and found a couple of sources that said I could run instant potato flakes through my spice grinder and voila...potato flour.

Obviously, that was wrong...in my eagerness to make bologna, I failed to account for how instant potatoes SWELL when re-hydrated. In essence, I think THAT'S what caused the spongy texture.

Takeaways:

1) FOLLOW THE RECIPE, but if you must make substitutions, THINK about what you already know about the ingredient BEFORE you jump the gun due to your enthusiasm.

2) Use smaller casings for bologna...it is NOT necessary that it be the same size as commercial bologna (and I did NOT enjoy dealing with that big, HONKIN' casing...at ALL). I have a couple dozen 2.5" clear fibrous...2.5" bologna tastes the same as 4.5" bologna.

3) Did I mention "enthusiasm above? Yes I did...and I need to CURB it!

4) I have a LOT more to learn about making sausage than I thought I did.

Whatcha think?

I think is FANTASTIC that you dove in and made this! I like that you did a good self review!

Here are 3 things to look at:
1. On emulsified products using food processor, virtually every pro video Ive seen emphasizes you MUST have very sharp blades, or it will whip air into the emulsion and you will end up with a spongy product.
2. Temperature is also tested repeatedly, kept below 34f while grinding, and below hmm, 45 maybe? during the emulsification. Again, to keep texture correct. Ice is added during food process blend to keep temp low, and it is not overblended, to keep temps low and avoid whipping air into it.
3. You hit it, but usually potato STARCH flour is used, not straight potato flour, it is quite different for texture and bind. I have only seen actual potatoe flour used on like swedish potato sausage, when used as a binder the starch is almost always the one. That might be a mistake on the recipe, as Marianski has potato starch as the binder in his actual books when potato is mentioned.

Hope those 3 points are helpful! Here is a recent video from Eric at 2guysandaCooler, where he made an emulsified sausage in a processor and hit these points:

 

[SherryT]

I am getting ready to do my first Bologna also. Thank for showing your process and trial and tribulations!
That is great insight as to the instant potatoes causing the texture issue.
It looks a little like liverwurst but that is not a bad thing.
I think you can also sub NFDM (non fat dry milk) for the flour but I sure some wurstmasters can clarify.
For a first time I think you did a great job and again thanks for posting.

Thanks for the feedback!

See, the thing that gets me is that I K-N-E-W how instant potatoes swell when re-hydrated, but it didn't even OCCUR to me it could cause a problem!

Bologna-flavored mashed potato log wasn't quite what I was going for!

 

[SherryT]

I think is FANTASTIC that you dove in and made this! I like that you did a good self review!

Here are 3 things to look at:
1. On emulsified products using food processor, virtually every pro video Ive seen emphasizes you MUST have very sharp blades, or it will whip air into the emulsion and you will end up with a spongy product.
2. Temperature is also tested repeatedly, kept below 34f while grinding, and below hmm, 45 maybe? during the emulsification. Again, to keep texture correct. Ice is added during food process blend to keep temp low, and it is not overblended, to keep temps low and avoid whipping air into it.
3. You hit it, but usually potato STARCH flour is used, not straight potato flour, it is quite different for texture and bind. I have only seen actual potatoe flour used on like swedish potato sausage, when used as a binder the starch is almost always the one. That might be a mistake on the recipe, as Marianski has potato starch as the binder in his actual books when potato is mentioned.

Hope those 3 points are helpful! Here is a recent video from Eric at 2guysandaCooler, where he made an emulsified sausage in a processor and hit these points:

Thanks Dave...I think I need to spend some time on that YT channel!

I'm not giving up...I've always loved bologna, but I've noticed over the past couple of years that they (major brand mfgrs) seem to have changed their recipes and screwed them ALL up...WAY too much salt (I'm starting to think one could hide the taste of roadkill with a sufficient amount of salt!), lack of firmness...everything!

The Great Bologna Quest has begun!

 

[SmokinEdge]

I applaud your efforts and your ambition, I think you did very well for a first go.

Non fat dry milk or potato starch are both good water binders, I prefer to use sodium tripolyphosphate (Sttp) or Amesphos or 450 super phosphate in emulsified sausages. The phosphate just does a better job at water binding.

Also with emulsified sausages you should keep your fat separate from the meat, it should be ground separately and emulsified separately. You then add it to the meat paste at the end just before stuffing and incorporate well. The reason is that fat retains very little moisture and it changes the water holding ability of the meat paste and changes the texture If emulsified with the meat, it also is difficult to get good protein extraction from the meat if fat is emulsified with it, you need protein extraction for a good bind of the batter and firm texture.

Be sure to keep the meat and fat very cold through the whole process.

 

[DanMcG]

Just a couple thoughts for your next attempt. You might want to skip the emulsifying and add a third 1/8" grind to your procedure, and of course you'd want to chill it to near freezing in-between grinds.
I'm thinking your spongy texture is the amount of water added. I know it a recipe from a reputable author but that's a lot of liquid! I like a springy texture but not spongy
Look at Marianski's Mortadella Bologna, I made it a couple weeks ago and it include only 60ml of liquid and the texture was great
Here a pic of it using the triple grind method.

I'll be looking forward to your next attempt!

 

[DougE]

Just a couple thoughts for your next attempt. You might want to skip the emulsifying and add a third 1/8" grind to your procedure, and of course you'd want to chill it to near freezing in-between grinds.
I'm thinking your spongy texture is the amount of water added. I know it a recipe from a reputable author but that's a lot of liquid! I like a springy texture but not spongy
Look at Marianski's Mortadella Bologna, I made it a couple weeks ago and it include only 60ml of liquid and the texture was great
Here a pic of it using the triple grind method.

View attachment 648241
I'll be looking forward to your next attempt!

That's some really nice looking Mortadella, Dan.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Here is another recipe. This is how I make my bologna.

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/threads/oh-bologna.312215/

 

[DougE]

If you have a store that sells Bob's Red Mill products, look for potato starch to use as a binder.