Soldering irons are blowing my fuses

[hotandcold]

Hi ... I'm new on the forum ... I enjoy both hot and cold smoking (I'm a charcoal man, live in Scotland).

In the case of cold smoking, I've only recently become aware of the soldering-iron technique ... I like it. But I've run into what to me looks like a serious problem:

My setup is short-circuiting within minutes of switching on. I've bought two brand-new soldering irons, the second one because I thought the first was faulty.

I have:

Soldering iron 1 (25W bought from Wickes), brand new
Soldering iron 2 (40W bought from B&Q), brand new
Tin can with sawdust/chips
Kettle-type BBQ grill
Two extension power cables, one white one black

The house mains system is fitted with an RCCB (residual-current contact breaker) and has not previously tripped.

All of the following setups cause an identical tripping fault:

Iron 1 + white extension + wall socket A
Iron 1 + black extension + wall socket A
Iron 2 + white extension + wall socket A
Iron 2 + black extension + wall socket A
Iron 2 + black extension + different socket B

All of the above tripped the RCCB within a few minutes, both irons, both extensions. Iron 2 was the quicker to trip (presumably because it reaches its operating temp quicker than the 25W iron?).

Anyone any suggestions/advice before I call in an electrician to test the house mains system?

Thank you - Charles

 

[daveomak]

Charles, morning..... Some of Europe is 220 volt....   Is Scotland ???   Sounds like you are using a 110 v iron in a 220 circuit.....   Dave

 

[hotandcold]

Hi Dave ... no, they both say "230v 50Hz" on the actual tool - which is the power standard in Scotland 

Thanks - Charles

 

[daveomak]

Charles, I don't have a clue .....  plug in a different  appliance..... say a toaster or iron...... see if it trips...... If it does, the breaker could have gone bad......  

 

[linguica]

Hi ... I'm new on the forum ... I enjoy both hot and cold smoking (I'm a charcoal man, live in Scotland).

In the case of cold smoking, I've only recently become aware of the soldering-iron technique ... I like it. But I've run into what to me looks like a serious problem:

My setup is short-circuiting within minutes of switching on. I've bought two brand-new soldering irons, the second one because I thought the first was faulty.

I have:

Soldering iron 1 (25W bought from Wickes), brand new
Soldering iron 2 (40W bought from B&Q), brand new
Tin can with sawdust/chips
Kettle-type BBQ grill
Two extension power cables, one white one black

The house mains system is fitted with an RCCB (rresidual-current contact breake) and has not previously tripped.

All of the following setups cause an identical tripping fault:

Iron 1 + white extension + wall socket A
Iron 1 + black extension + wall socket A
Iron 2 + white extension + wall socket A
Iron 2 + black extension + wall socket A
Iron 2 + black extension + different socket B

All of the above tripped the RCCB within a few minutes, both irons, both extensions. Iron 2 was the quicker to trip (presumably because it reaches its operating temp quicker than the 25W iron?).

Anyone any suggestions/advice before I call in an electrician to test the house mains system?

Thank you - Charles

Something (information) is missing from this problem.  25 + 40 = 65 W..........??  Heating element shorted to ground??

After a little quick reading, a RCCB is just a GFI. I would suspect a defective GFI or a ground fault. Has to be one or the other.

Plug iron in with a volt meter clipped on iron tip and good ground. Meter set on 250 vac range. Any reading is a ground fault and is also dangerous.

 

[dward51]

Multiple paths to ground since you are using it in a can and smoker?   Where is the smoker & smoke can?  Ground leakage would trip a GFCI for sure. But if that is the problem, you have a potential bigger issue as in possible electrical shock (which is why the GFI is tripping).

 

[hotandcold]

Linguica :

< Something (information) is missing from this problem. 25 + 40 = 65 W..........?? >

I have two irons (a 25w and a 40w) and only plug in one at a time so there wouldn't be any question of a simultaneous total of 65w - if I've understood you correctly.

< Heating element shorted to ground?? >

That's possible but I've absolutely no knowledge of electricity (and maybe for that reason alone shouldn't be fiddling around with a soldering iron).

< Plug iron in with a volt meter clipped on iron tip and good ground. Meter set on 250 vac range. Any reading is a ground fault and is also dangerous. >

This's way above my pay grade. But I do plan having an electrician come in to install some extra lights and power sockets in the garage soon. Maybe best I leave the faultfinding to him ... I'll mention your suggestion.

Dward51 :

< Multiple paths to ground since you are using it in a can and smoker? Where is the smoker & smoke can? >

I have the tin can lying on its side on the round metal grate inside a metal BBQ grill (Weber kettle type), which itself is standing on a concrete patio. The soldering iron is stuck through a hole in the can and plugged into a power socket via an extension cable.

Is that a stupid/dangerous setup? I'm just copying what I think I've seen in photographs and descriptions online.

For the record, in my last attempted connection ("different socket B") I had the BBQ grill standing just inside the kitchen door on a dry wooden floor - the GFCI still tripped. I haven't tried since - and I don't think I will until an electrician has checked out the situation. My reason for trying the different combinations I list was, of course, to try to identify the fault area - could it possibly be an oversensitive GFCI? But even so, that would presumably indicate a grounding fault ... ? As I mentioned earlier, the GFCI has never tripped before.

Question:

When I get the problem solved, can I expect to be able to stick the soldering iron into half a can of sawdust/chips and have it smoke until the sawdust is burned out? Can the heat generated by the burning sawdust by itself cause the soldering iron a problem?

Charles

 

[mike johnson]

I think its the extension cords that are doing it. plug in the soldering iron to the wall without the cord and see what happens.

 

[sparkypyro]

GFCIs are prone to failure. Plug the iron into a non GFCI outlet and see if it trips.


Sent from my iPhone using voodoo and smoke signals.

 

[hotandcold]

SparkyPyro :

< Plug the iron into a non GFCI outlet and see if it trips >

It seems that the whole domestic power system in our house is protected by the GFCI so I don't have access to a non-GFCI outlet (and with some kind of fault lurking around, I don't feel like asking the neighbour if I can plug into his mains 

)

Mike :

< I think its the extension cords that are doing it. plug in the soldering iron to the wall without the cord and see what happens. >

I rigged up a wooden frame on the patio to keep the tin can and the iron insulated against contact with ground, then plugged soldering iron directly into outlet without the extension cord. Result: the iron produced smoke for more than half an hour without tripping the GFCI (it was great to see how much smoke came out of that can!).

I then added the white extension cable to this wood-frame/insulated setup. Result: the iron continued to produce smoke (its tip was red hot) without tripping the GFCI.

Finally, I took a length of cable with both ends bared and touched the tin can with one end and the nearby BBQ grill (which was standing on the ground) with the other - expecting there to be a grounding and the GFCI to trip. But that didn't happen. The setup simply continued producing smoke, no tripping.

I think that's as far as I'm going to take it on my own. I'll let the electrician have a look when he comes.

Thanks to all you guys for your input. I promise to report back when I have the solution to the mystery (also because I don't want to leave any loose ends if someone else runs into this problem in the future and is searching for information).

Charles

 

[dward51]

People don't think of a concrete slab as being conductive, but here is some personal "life experience" for you....

Back in the early 60's when I was a young strapping lad, we had a friend who had a Florida beach house next to the old pier at Mexico Beach, FL (back when there was nothing but a handful of block beach houses in the area if anyone knows the location I'm talking about).

Now for those of you not old enough to remember a "true" Florida house, they were single story camp houses made with simple concrete slabs with concrete block walls, jalousie crank windows, and had a screened porch across the ocean side with at least one hammock on the porch. No carpet, no vinyl floors, just bare concrete (and no air conditioning other than what God gave you from the ocean breeze). Pretty spartan structures by today's standards. Usually a Florida house was painted some bright pastel color and had a very low pitch hip roof. Sadly I must confess I just tried to find a representative photo in google images and gave up after 15 pages. Guess I'm older than I thought it was if google doesn't "remember" them.

We had a portable Western Electric record player record player that we took with us to keep the kids (including me) entertained. It did not take long to figure out that if you were barefoot on the concrete floor and touched the center spindle of the platter you got a electric buzz of 60hz, but if you had on flip flops you did not. We are talking about a concrete slab floor that had been there for 30 or 40 years and was inside so it should not have been damp. And no, the cords did not have a ground wire back then. I'm sure the motor was conducting to the metal spindle and we were getting buzzed by 120v AC.

May not be why your breaker trips, but it was a thought.... And a example that concrete will act as a path to ground even when bone dry.

Ok, old fart ramblings of days gone by is over for now, you may continue with the original thread......

And I'm wondering how long it is before someone asks "what are flip flops".

 

[sigmo]

The question is: Why would there be a leakage path from "hot" to the casing and/or tip of the soldering iron? :eek:

The metal on the outside of the iron, and the tip, should be insulated from the wiring. You would blow up a lot of semiconductors with a soldering iron that had mains power on the tip!

Even a small amount of leakage would be dangerous for the circuits and the user of a soldering iron.

Regardless of what the sawdust can touches, there should be no leakage path to trip the gfci unless the soldering iron is defective.

So might it be that the smoke is permeating the insides of the irons, depositing a creosote layer that creates conductive paths from the power conductors to the cases/tips of the irons?

If so, this is dangerous, and your gfci is protecting you! Don't ignore this. Be glad that it's working, saving you from potentially lethal shocks.

And if this method of smoking does cause soldering irons to become "leaky", then that's a bad thing, and reason enough to avoid this practice, IMO.

It would be safer to use soldering irons with three wire grounded cords and grounded cases/tips. At least then, when the irons shorted out to their own cases, the case would not be "hot". So while the gfci would still trip at least nobody would be in danger of electrocution.


Phoned in.

 

[hotandcold]

dward51 :

I note and thank you for your words about the concrete slab. Not knowing enough about electricity, I respect - and am dead scared of - the stuff. In my situation I I treat every factor as a possible lethal hazard - including the concrete blocks that are laid on my patio.

"Flip flops"? I stem from the days before flip flops (immediately pre World War II) and appreciate a bit of nostalgia 

Sigmo :

< Why would there be a leakage path from "hot" to the casing and/or tip of the soldering iron? ... Regardless of what the sawdust can touches, there should be no leakage path to trip the gfci unless the soldering iron is defective. >

I can follow and agree with your logic, and I bought two brand-new soldering irons of different makes from different stores, assuming that if one was faulty, chances were the other wouldn't be. But, as I said in an earlier reply, this is way above my pay grade, I'm afraid. 

Thank you for confirming that mere contact between the tip of the soldering iron and the sawdust can shouldn't in itself be an electrical problem.

< It would be safer to use soldering irons with three wire grounded cords and grounded cases/tips. At least then, when the irons shorted out to their own cases, the case would not be "hot". So while the gfci would still trip at least nobody would be in danger of electrocution. >

In the UK all power sockets are grounded (earthed), and appliances, etc., use three-wire grounded cords. I've just checked my equipment: the two irons each have a three-pin plug (one pin is ground/earth), and both my extension cables have ground protection at each end.

 

[DanMcG]

Hey Charles, you got me puzzled (which isn't that hard to do really)
Is there a chance that when your setup was tripping that there was excessive moisture in the air. rain or high humidity? are your cords it good condition?

 

[sigmo]

[quote name="Hotandcold"]I've just checked my equipment: the two irons each have a three-pin plug (one pin is ground/earth), and both my extension cables have ground protection at each end.[/quote]

This is one of those cases where the described evidence does not make sense unless there's a very strange fault.

If the soldering iron's tips/casings are earth grounded via the three wire cords and the power receptacles, then I have to wonder why they trip the GFCI only when these earth-grounded tips have a second path to earth ground via the cans and concrete.

Since isolating the irons from earth ground (with the wood) prevents the GFCI from tripping, we know that there must be some current finding a new path to ground when the irons are not isolated by the wood.

This suggests that the irons' tips are not truly grounded. Or maybe the whole house isn't grounded to the earth in the area where the cans touch the concrete.

Perhaps the receptacle is miswired.

I wish I could make some tests right there.

If your GFCI is faulty, then why doesn't it trip from any other activity in your house?

It's an interesting case. :)





Phoned in.

 

[hotandcold]

DanMcG :

< Is there a chance that when your setup was tripping that there was excessive moisture in the air. rain or high humidity? are your cords it good condition? >

It was spitting lightly with rain but I had everything covered and protected (as I say, I'm dead scared of electricity because you can't see the stuff). I wore thick leather gloves - and touched no part of the setup while the wall socket was switched on. You guys may laugh - but taking care has brought me to the age of 73 and I plan being around for a l-o-n-g time yet  

Sigmo :

< This suggests that the irons' tips are not truly grounded. Or maybe the whole house isn't grounded to the earth in the area where the cans touch the concrete. >

I think I'd better call that electrician for next week if he's available. I'll make him a summary of the points you folks are bringing up.

< Perhaps the receptacle is miswired. >

Sigmo, what does the term "receptacle" mean in this context? The wall socket? The circuit?

I'm going off on a family visit in about 15 hours time (Friday midday here in Scotland), won't be back until Sunday evening. So won't be available to answer any posts until then.

Meantime - thank you, folks

 

[sigmo]

Yes. Receptacle = wall socket. :)

Phoned in.

 

[linguica]

What's needed here is an IBEW electrician. Or the Scottish  equivalent.

 

[stovebolt]

Just guessing, but I expect that the heat from having the iron inside the cooking area overheated and shorted out the heating element in the iron. For a heating element that small I'm sure the wire they are wound with is extremely small diameter. 

Chuck

 

[hotandcold]

Linguica :

< What's needed here is an IBEW electrician. Or the Scottish equivalent. >

I've had one booked for a couple of weeks, he should be here later today.

Stovebolt / Chuck :

< Just guessing, but I expect that the heat from having the iron inside the cooking area overheated and shorted out the heating element in the iron. For a heating element that small I'm sure the wire they are wound with is extremely small diameter. >

Yes, I can follow your logic - but wouldn't that also apply to just about every other soldering iron being used for the tin-can method of cold smoking across the world? And as far as I can see on forums (including this one) there are a lot of people out there using soldering irons for this purpose. Most give the impression they simply popped into their local hardware store and bought the first soldering iron they saw - or am I being ignorant, and they are buying soldering irons which are resistant to the situation you suggest? I should just mention/repeat that I bought two different, brand-new irons from different stores, one is 25W, the other 40W. Wouldn't it be too much of a coincidence that they both have the same "fault" that you touch on?

As I say, I'm getting the electrician to call this afternoon - hope he can shed some light on the problem. I'll mention your thought to him.

Charles