Sodium TriPolyPhosphate

[indaswamp]

I've read that the max. concentration should be no more than 0.5% which is 6~8ounces per 100lbs. of meat paste.

My question is what concentration of phosphates do you prefer to use when making smoke sausages? What say you Dave? Chef jj??

 

[chef jimmyj]

Got to defer to Dave on this one. I've not played with the stuff...YET!...JJ

 

[dernektambura]

I don't even have a clue what that is and how you used it in sausages...

 

[SonnyE]

If I can't pronounce it, I don't want to eat it.
Of course, that said, I take medicines I have no idea what the hell they are.

I'm just under 200 pounds, so I could probably take in a pound of the stuff.
Cheers!

 

[chopsaw]

I used it at half the recommended max rate . So around .2 or .3 percent .
I have been using it alot in sausage lately . It also acts to emulsify the meat paste , so keep that in mind .

 

[indaswamp]

Thanks chopsaw...

 

[pushok2018]

chopsaw, could you please explain how this stuff helps (acts) to emulsify the meat paste? Non commercial way to emulsify meat is to use larger food processors or Champion juicers. This is mechanical way to emulsify meat. Is Sodium TriPolyPhosphate help to this process chemically? I am ready to order this stuff and searching for more specific info on this... Thanks.

 

[indaswamp]

chopsaw, could you please explain how this stuff helps (acts) to emulsify the meat paste? Non commercial way to emulsify meat is to use larger food processors or Champion juicers. This is mechanical way to emulsify meat. Is Sodium TriPolyPhosphate help to this process chemically? I am ready to order this stuff and searching for more specific info on this... Thanks.

Here ya go:
https://meatsci.osu.edu/node/125
"Pyrophosphates also serve to dissociate, or separate, actomyosin into its component parts: actin and myosin. This is very advantageous, as myosin by itself is more beneficial than actomyosin for emulsification and bind in sausage products. Tripolyphosphates, as stated previously, are hydrolyzed by phosphates into the pyrophosphate form. This,then, gives tripolyphosphates an actomyosin-dissociating potential."

 

[chopsaw]

Phosphates are used in alot of food products you buy and consume on a daily basis .

@pushok2018 sodium erythorbate is another additive used to help with sausage emulsions . It also helps to set the color of the sausage and fight oxidation that can occur around high temp cheese in Summer sausage .

@indaswamp this was the same question I had when I first wanted to use it in sausage . This is what I did . I got on Len Poli's site and compared his formulas to each other . I picked 5 that he used phosphates in . I noticed that the amounts would differ for the same weight of meat . So I then looked to see what type of sausage it was . So a product like a beef SS or cooked salami was a lower amount than say hot dog type . Anyway , that gave me an informed idea from a source I consider trusted , and also gave me some back up for my math .
I'm not the expert on this , Dave got me started with it in the hams , but I have done some research on use in sausage .

 

[chef jimmyj]

Phosphates are very common in commercial products like Hot Dogs, Cold Cuts(Ham, Turkey, Bologna)and with Shellfish. It helps bind ground meat proteins and fat for emulsification and retains moisture in the sausage or meat. But Phosphates can be misused as well. A Deli I worked in carried 35% water added Ham. The stuff must of had the USDA limit of Phosphate in it to retain that amount of water. It was cheap and the small print on the sign said " water added" but few realized what they were paying for. Probably the biggest abuse of Phosphate is with shelfish. Soak 31-40 count Shimp, $5.99/lb, in water and Phosphate and they swell up to 21-25 shrimp, $7.99/lb, until they are cooked and shrink back to their true size. Pretty good scam! Scallops too. You usually see these as Big Scallops swimming in a bowl of milky water. They are safe to eat and tasty but your are paying for water. These Scallops can be sauteed or grilled but will never sear golden brown and the breading blows off if you deep fry them. Pay the extra for Dry Scallops that have no added Phosphate...JJ

 

[dernektambura]

Here ya go:
https://meatsci.osu.edu/node/125
"Pyrophosphates also serve to dissociate, or separate, actomyosin into its component parts: actin and myosin. This is very advantageous, as myosin by itself is more beneficial than actomyosin for emulsification and bind in sausage products. Tripolyphosphates, as stated previously, are hydrolyzed by phosphates into the pyrophosphate form. This,then, gives tripolyphosphates an actomyosin-dissociating potential."

Now, with my english as a second language (more like a third.. lol), it's gonna take a week to figure this... lol...

 

[chef jimmyj]

Translation...Proteins looks like Coiled Springs that can't hold on to each other. Phosphate Relaxes and straightens the spings, like a pile of Protein Threads. Start mixing and the threads get tangled to each other or Bind Together and hold on to Fat and Water in the spaces between the threads...JJ

 

[dernektambura]

Translation...Proteins looks like Coiled Springs that can't hold on to each other. Phosphate Relaxes and straightens the spings, like a pile of Protein Threads. Start mixing and the threads get tangled to each other or Bind Together...JJ

thanks for translating it in to layman terms ... now I just gotta figure what m I gonna do with that.. it sucks not knowing what I'm doing ..

 

[baboy]

Not saying they are not usefull but they are always trying to sell as much water as possible.

 

[chef jimmyj]

There are guys that swear by using Phosphate, that it makes sausage and muscle meat, Brisket, Ham and such, juicier. Give it a try, just follow trusted recipes like from here or Len Poli's recipes. DaveOmak, uses it quite a bit and is a trusted source of information...JJ

 

[dernektambura]

Phosphates are very common in commercial products like Hot Dogs, Cold Cuts(Ham, Turkey, Bologna)and with Shellfish. It helps bind ground meat proteins and fat for emulsification and retains moisture in the sausage or meat. But Phosphates can be misused as well. A Deli I worked in carried 35% water added Ham. The stuff must of had the USDA limit of Phosphate in it to retain that amount of water. It was cheap and the small print on the sign said " water added" but few realized what they were paying for. Probably the biggest abuse of Phosphate is with shelfish. Soak 31-40 count Shimp, $5.99/lb, in water and Phosphate and they swell up to 21-25 shrimp, $7.99/lb, until they are cooked and shrink back to their true size. Pretty good scam! Scallops too. You usually see these as Big Scallops swimming in a bowl of milky water. They are safe to eat and tasty but your are paying for water. These Scallops can be sauteed or grilled but will never sear golden brown and the breading blows off if you deep fry them. Pay the extra for Dry Scallops that have no added Phosphate...JJ

now I understand... it's like a Russian guy who, on Moscow black market, sells red peper filled (by syringe) with water....money is good... taste is juicy and costumer is happy....

 

[pc farmer]

There are guys that swear by using Phosphate, that it makes sausage and muscle meat, Brisket, Ham and such, juicier. Give it a try, just follow trusted recipes like from here or Len Poli's recipes. DaveOmak, uses it quite a bit and is a trusted source of information...JJ

I use it for my hams. Makes for a nice juicy ham. Would I want to buy meat with it injected with it, no. But with me adding it on my own I am ok with it.

 

[indaswamp]

Not saying they are not usefull but they are always trying to sell as much water as possible.

True... with commercially made sausages they pump as much phosphate as the law will allow and in some cases can take 100lbs. of meat and end up with 160lbs. of finished product. A lot of the store bought sausages are like this, and upon frying in a pot, the water is released and the sausage pieces shrink down to about 3/4 or more.
And.....they are not even 'smoked' in the true sense of the word; they use colored casing and are steamed/showered with liquid smoke to cook them.....

 

[indaswamp]

Phosphates are used in alot of food products you buy and consume on a daily basis .

@pushok2018 sodium erythorbate is another additive used to help with sausage emulsions . It also helps to set the color of the sausage and fight oxidation that can occur around high temp cheese in Summer sausage .

@indaswamp this was the same question I had when I first wanted to use it in sausage . This is what I did . I got on Len Poli's site and compared his formulas to each other . I picked 5 that he used phosphates in . I noticed that the amounts would differ for the same weight of meat . So I then looked to see what type of sausage it was . So a product like a beef SS or cooked salami was a lower amount than say hot dog type . Anyway , that gave me an informed idea from a source I consider trusted , and also gave me some back up for my math .
I'm not the expert on this , Dave got me started with it in the hams , but I have done some research on use in sausage .

I have looked at various college educational course material online for commercial butchery, Texas A&M, University of Kentucky, Ohio State just to name a few off the top of my head.... I learned that different meats have different binding capacities and the amount of phosphates used depends on this factor among others, chief of which is what kind of sausages you are making....

 

[indaswamp]

I started researching phosphates in earnest when I was formulating my recent pineapple sausage recipe.....I was interested in the enhanced binding capacity of phosphates with highly acidic liquids in sausage meat paste....

It DOES raise the pH and DOES create more chemically charged sights on the proteins (by causing them to uncoil into longer strands offering a better entanglement with other strands)