Second Bacon Attempt--Dry Brine This Time

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From the FSIS handbook.....  http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OPPDE/rdad/FSISDirectives/7620-3.pdf   page 28.... excerpts

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Regardless of the curing method used, restricted ingredient calculations for bacon are based on

the green weight of the skinless belly.  For rind-on bacon, e.g., where the skin is sold as part of

the finished product, a restricted ingredient conversion calculation is necessary.

Nitrate is no longer permitted in any curing method for bacon.

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From Wedliny Domowe.....  http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/sausage-making/curing  ...  excerpts... 

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Meats were traditionally cured with Nitrate.

Before Nitrate can release nitrite, it has to react with bacteria that have to be present in the meat.

Putting Nitrate into a refrigerator kept solution (below 40° F) will inhibit the development of bacteria, and they may not be able to react with Nitrate.

They also predominantly used potassium Nitrate which works best at temperatures of 46-50° F (8-10° C) and those were the temperatures of basement cellars.

Salt and nitrite will stop Cl. botulinum spores from developing into toxins, even at those higher curing temperatures. 

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From Susan Minor........  http://www.susanminor.org/forums/showthread.php?674-SAUSAGE-INGREDIENTS ..  Excerpts....

SODIUM NITRATE

Nitrates are considered a slow cure, and are referred to as a “time release capsule.” It does not cure meat directly and initially not much happens when it is added to meat. With nitrates the curing is dependent on the amount of bacteria present, and the environment (temperature) the bacteria need to grow. For nitrates to work as a cure it requires the presents of certain microorganisms. These microorganisms are present in all meats, and start to react with the nitrates to reduce them to nitrites. It is the nitrites that will start the curing process.

This is a slow process that steadily releases nitrites over a long period of time. This makes it well suited for curing products that require long curing times. Dry cure products can take as long as several weeks to several months to fully cure. Nitrates are used for making dry cure sausages; such as pepperoni, hard salami, geonoa salami, dried farmers sausage, capicola, etc, and dry cure meats that are not cooked or need to be cooked.

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There have been many arguments on this site over the use of Morton's products and their use in bacon....

For the record, USE WHAT EVER CURING PRODUCT YOU CHOOSE TO USE.....  

As you can see from the above print, nitrates are not allowed in a bacon product..... 

Nitrates convert to nitrites in the presence of certain bacteria.....   

Refrigeration inhibits the growth of bacteria.....

Nitrates work best at temperatures in the range of 46-50 deg F

Nitrates works best in long term dry curing.... many months at 46-50 deg. F...   meats not intended to be cooked, like bacon...

Rubbing meat with a curing product and placing it in a zip bag in the refer for 14 days... is not dry curing....  

it is a form of Pumped and/or Massaged and/or Immersion curing....

Dry curing is when you see meat hanging in a root cellar, or a barn during the winter for 1 to 9 months.... 

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I have read many papers, notes and articles on curing.....   I am still learning....  

What I have written, is what I go by from the reading I have done...  It is VERY condensed and not all relevant material is presented in the above.....  

The sources have been noted, so, read if you wish to get educated.....  

Many folks on this forum are curing using methods that are older than I am...  They were perfectly good methods when they were written, and still could be perfectly good and safe today... I'm not arguing about historical methodology....  I'm still trying to learn to cook the way Grandma did... she died 52 years ago....  Old ways are good...  Bacon made 52 years ago was the best bacon ever made....  I'm trying to duplicate that bacon.....  Only difference is, I'm going to duplicate it using proven, safe, modern methods.... 
 
That is great info Dave and I have had those sites bookmarked in my Curing file for awhile. They are very clear about how Nitrate works and why with a long, warm (>40*F ), Dry curing process we use it. And the USDA statement you highlighted says Nitrate is no longer permitted...But...I would like to see some info on Why it is no longer permitted. For years guys have argued with Bearcarver that MTQ was potentially dangerous for curing Bacon and other meats because it contained Nitrate and that MTQ's Nitrate won't be converted during a short, Cold Cure. However, I have not seen anything definitive as to why they are so worried and if the small amount of Nitrate in MTQ is or isn't cause for worry when makin' and eating Bacon...JJ
 
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Nitrate is no longer permitted in any curing method for bacon.

I don't know why.... It doesn't matter to me either way....  I figure there is some scientific evidence to back up their statement that is too lengthy to discuss in Food Safety Inspection Service pamphlet....  

That is like asking, "why 120 Ppm nitrite in bacon when up to 600 Ppm nitrite is allowed in other meat products"

I'm sure there is scientific evidence to support those numbers also...

It probably has something to do with nitrosamine formation.... some say it is formed at 600 deg.... others say 300 deg.... nitrosamines are bad, or so they say....  Not worth me being a guinea pig to try and prove them wrong....  

I'm not one to try and dissect every little detail... some things yes... others no.... Like I wrote in my post.....

USE WHAT EVER CURING PRODUCT YOU CHOOSE TO USE
 
It still would be interesting to look at. I have yet to read any government studies or reports that were, " over my head " though I have gotten my Butt Kicked by most Medical Research Reports. I have to give Doctors Credit, there is lots to learn in the Medical Profession...JJ
 
It still would be interesting to look at. I have yet to read any government studies or reports that were, " over my head " though I have gotten my Butt Kicked by most Medical Research Reports. I have to give Doctors Credit, there is lots to learn in the Medical Profession...JJ
While trying to get through this web of confusion , I found this interesting read.

A bacon cooking study, "Effect of Frying and Other Cooking Conditions on Nitrosopyrrolidine Formation in Bacon" (Journal of Science, Vol. 39, pages 314-316), showed no evidence of nitrosamines in bacon fried at 210 °F for 10 minutes (raw), 210 °F for 15 minutes (medium well), 275 °F for 10 minutes (very light), or 275 °F for 30 minutes (medium well). But when bacon was fried at 350 °F for 6 minutes (medium well), 400 °F for 4 minutes (medium well), or 400 °F for 10 minutes (burned), some nitrosamines were found. Thus, well-done or burned bacon is potentially more hazardous than less well-done bacon. Also, bacon cooked by a microwave has less nitrosamine than fried bacon.

Fact:  If they put nitrites or nitrates in beer, I would have a serious problem. 
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It still would be interesting to look at. I have yet to read any government studies or reports that were, " over my head " though I have gotten my Butt Kicked by most Medical Research Reports. I have to give Doctors Credit, there is lots to learn in the Medical Profession...JJ
Here's more.  Just spoke to consumer affairs at Morton.  I ask Morton's stand on the USDA banning nitrates when curing bacon.  Their response was " You will have to speak to the USDA about that."  Any one have a phone number ?
 
I find it amazing.....

The FDA finds a health concern with an additive put in food..... bans it..... and you guys dance around the situation looking for any way possible, to justify it's use in your food...

Not all chickens have salmonella....  Do you eat it raw ???

One goal of this forum is to teach folks safety issue in curing and smoking foods....
 
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The discussion was about using a Morton's product in an inappropriate way, not a general discussion of the use of nitrate.

Morton's Sugar Cure Smoked flavored shouldn't be used for short term curing (short term curing of any kind, not just bacon) the same way that saltpeter isn't recommended for short term curing.
That's why we now use nitrite when we cure short term.

The reason I bought it up was because folks should not be using Morton's Smoke Flavored Sugar Cure the same way that they generally us MTQ, pretty simple concept, really.

But, of course, do as you please.

Anyway....about nitrate in bacon.....

"A bacon cooking study, "Effect of Frying and Other Cooking Conditions on Nitrosopyrrolidine Formation in Bacon" (Journal of Science, Vol. 39, pages 314-316), showed no evidence of nitrosamines in bacon fried at 210 °F for 10 minutes (raw), 210 °F for 15 minutes (medium well), 275 °F for 10 minutes (very light), or 275 °F for 30 minutes (medium well). But when bacon was fried at 350 °F for 6 minutes (medium well), 400 °F for 4 minutes (medium well), or 400 °F for 10 minutes (burned), some nitrosamines were found. Thus, well-done or burned bacon is potentially more hazardous than less well-done bacon. Also, bacon cooked by a microwave has less nitrosamine than fried bacon."

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/FACTSheets/Bacon_and_Food_Safety/index.asp

The reason they've regulated nitrate and nitrite in commercial bacon is pretty simple.
Nitrite converts to nitrosamines.
The USDA set the rules for commercial bacon production to minimize the amount of residual nitrites in bacon which also minimizes possible nitrosamine production.
By eliminating nitrate, which converts to nitrite in an often unpredictable fashion, they have taken a special step to better control the amount of residual nitrite in bacon.
Nitrite is limited to a certain level and a curing accelerator is required to further ensure that residual nitrite levels are at a minimum.

The government isn't God, as far as what they suggest, take it or leave it when it comes to home cured bacon.

Again, do as you please.

BTW: Beer does contain nitrosamines!!!

~Martin
 
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Thanks Martin, you saved me a lot of typing.  To try and cut this short I just spoke to the USDA and the FDA.  Bottom line I was told is, they don't speak to one another. Surprise?  The USDA says nitrates cannot be used in commercial products while the FDA grants it okay for Morton to use as an additive in there product for home use.  

I'm sure this clears things up. Now if you will excuse me, I am going to go bang my head against the wall.

Thanks for the info on the beer.

Tom
 
All members.......  About post   #27...

At times, I  can get a little "up tight" when it comes to curing meat safely....  Probably for the reason, one mistake could be one mistake too many....  

If you were offended, I apologize....   If you took notice of how important, I feel, curing meat properly is.... that is good.... 

Sincerely, DaveOmak
 
All members.......  About post   #27...

At times, I  can get a little "up tight" when it comes to curing meat safely....  Probably for the reason, one mistake could be one mistake too many....  

If you were offended, I apologize....   If you took notice of how important, I feel, curing meat properly is.... that is good.... 

Sincerely, DaveOmak
As do we all Dave,  That is why a good discussion on such matters is good for us all.  In this case we have one government agency that has nitrates on the "Restricted Ingredients" list and another who allows it to be placed in commercial products. After spending a very interesting morning talking to both the USDA and the FDA hoping to get this matter resolved, the finding was that it is not as cut and dried as one would like.  I learned that when cooking bacon with nitrates the temperature has a great effect on the bad stuff we eat, refering to post #25.  According to the FDA low and slow is the way to go, dont burn it.   

Tom
 
Uh, guys, the point here is moot.

1) I titled the thread "dry brining", not dry curing, and

2) I wouldn't care if the Nitrates formed arsenic. I'd still eat bacon.

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Uh, guys, the point here is moot.

1) I titled the thread "dry brining", not dry curing, and

2) I wouldn't care if the Nitrates formed arsenic. I'd still eat bacon.

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mneeley490, evening..... regardless of the title or subject, there were some points that needed clarifying....

Sorry for highjacking the thread...   Dave
 
Thanks Mr. T for doing the leg work. I have never been one to follow anything Blindly. If the USDA says Nitrate can't be used for Commercial Bacon and the FDA say Morton can add Nitrate to their cures for Home cured Bacon...I want to no why? Simply following and/or quoting some Rule, Guideline or Law, can be costly to oneself and Definitely costly to others that rely on our expertise to lead them in their endeavors. Thanks for the valuable information and our continued education...JJ
 
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JJ, morning....  I would take a guess....   Lobbyists got Morton's products "grandfathered", to home users, when the law was passed... 

Protecting the rights of individuals to process meats as they chose......

Dave
 
Trying to read between the lines, my opinion is that knowing that many fry their bacon at high temps until crisp, the USDA found it easier to restrict nitrates in bacon than to put warnings and cooking instructions on the packaging.

On the other hand the FDA felt it more important for those who cure their own bacon to control bacteria than to fry bacon at high temperatures.  
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