Sausage additives question

[SmokyMose]

Good afternoon!
I'm looking at a beef sausage (Len Poli) and there are a couple of ingredients I'm not familiar with.
1. AmesPhos. Is this the same as cold phosphate-sodium phosphate (which I can get at Walton's)?
2. Whey, protein isolate. Is this another name for Soy Protein Concentrate?
Any help from the sausage folks?
Dan

 

[indaswamp]

Ames phos is a blend of phosphates that was created by a BarBQue enthusiast. I forget who created it. But it is used in sausages to retain moisture. Whey protein isolate is dehydrated whey from milk. It acts as extra protein in the sausage for binding, just like soy protein.

 

[SmokyMose]

Ames phos is a blend of phosphates that was created by a BarBQue enthusiast. I forget who created it. But it is used in sausages to retain moisture. Whey protein isolate is dehydrated whey from milk. It acts as extra protein in the sausage for binding, just like soy protein.

Thank you, sir. I'm going to order the "cold phosphate-sodium phosphate" from Walton's and hope for the best. As long as it's a phosphate it should do the job.
Len Poli seems to like complicated sausage recipes but I'm going to try to stick with it instead of taking shortcuts.....

 

[indaswamp]

Just follow the directions carefully for the phosphate....some need to be added to cold water, while others only dissolve in warm 100*-120*F water.

 

[chopsaw]

Whey, protein isolate.

Is this a emulsified sausage by chance ? One use of Whey is it also acts as an emulsifier .
Isolates have a higher protien amount than the concentrates because it's defatted at a higher amount . Both are high though . The defatting is what makes that protein number high .
I used to use soy Isolate . You have to be careful with the concentrate because to much can add a " taste " Isolates are more neutral , and also bind more with less .

I went down this rabbit hole years ago , because I was comparing Poli's formulas , and got to wondering why he uses , NFDM and soy concentrate in the same mix . As well as phosphates , milk powder and soy or whey .

I would say that if he's using phosphates and whey Isolate in the formula , he's using the whey for the protien content . Phosphate to retain the moisture .

Another place I landed was using the phosphates at half the rate he lists .
Not suggesting you do that . Just how I do it , or was doing it . I know my amounts now .

 

[SmokyMose]

Is this a emulsified sausage by chance ? One use of Whey is it also acts as an emulsifier .
Isolates have a higher protien amount than the concentrates because it's defatted at a higher amount . Both are high though . The defatting is what makes that protein number high .
I used to use soy Isolate . You have to be careful with the concentrate because to much can add a " taste " Isolates are more neutral , and also bind more with less .

I went down this rabbit hole years ago , because I was comparing Poli's formulas , and got to wondering why he uses , NFDM and soy concentrate in the same mix . As well as phosphates , milk powder and soy or whey .

I would say that if he's using phosphates and whey Isolate in the formula , he's using the whey for the protien content . Phosphate to retain the moisture .

Another place I landed was using the phosphates at half the rate he lists .
Not suggesting you do that . Just how I do it , or was doing it . I know my amounts now .

Yes it is emulsified. I was planning to use the recipe as is, but I'm going to keep your suggestions in mind. I learned some time ago you can't always trust the experts.....

 

[chopsaw]

Yes it is emulsified.

I figured it was , because of the use of Whey , and Phosphates . So besides the protein add , he wants the emulsified benefit of the whey also .

planning to use the recipe as is,

Yup , for sure . Gives you a base line .

 

[Fueling Around]

AmesPhos is/was a favorite additive.
It was off the market for a number of years.
It is now available again from Make It Meaty

 

[dward51]

Another phosphate binder I've used is Butcher & Packer Special Binder #414. A 1 pound bag is very inexpensive and last years (at least for me it does). I have AmesPhos, B&P 414, and of course NFDM (dry milk powder) and they all work. I use the B&P most of the time, mostly out of habit and it's easy to find. Less than $10 a pound bag.

https://www.butcher-packer.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=895

 

[DougE]

Amesphos is no longer available but PhosThis is supposed to be the same formulation.

Amazon.com

 

[DougE]

I have a container of it but haven't played around with it much yet.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Amesphos is no longer available but PhosThis is supposed to be the same formulation.

Amazon.com

PhosThis is definitely a cold phosphate. Don’t mix it warm. And mix it very first before any other added ingredients.

 

[SmokinEdge]

I much prefer the 450 super Phosphate from B&P. That’s over all of them I’ve tried, they all work though.

 

[DougE]

I much prefer the 450 super Phosphate from B&P. That’s over all of them I’ve tried, they all work though.

Still the same 0.3 to 0.4% phosphate to meat ratio, I expect.

I was going to buy that from B&P but trying to make an account was a major hassle.

 

[SmokinEdge]

I was going to buy that from B&P but trying to make an account was a major hassle.

I’ve never needed an account. What is important is knowing weather the phos is cold or not. Otherwise they all seem to work.

 

[Boris1]

Super 450 is awesome … Amesphos was sold by Allen Benton at the ingredient store but he didn’t create it he just sold to it the ordinary consumer instead of commercially which was the only way it was available years ago….. phos this is similar from my understanding but really any phosphate will work….. I’ve noticed some dissolve much better than other

 

[SmokyMose]

Ok. I ground and mixed yesterday and let rest in the fridge overnight like usual. Left the "binders" out and will add them this morning also like I usually do. Hoping to emulsify, stuff and finish today. The recipe calls for 4 hrs cold smoke before bumping the heat to 180F. Does 4 hrs cold smoke sound right, even with a cure? The reason I ask is that the ingredients list calls for 32mm casings, but in the directions it calls for 38mm. When I see a discrepancy or typo it makes me wonder if there are more....

 

[chopsaw]

I see no issue follow that schedual .
I smoke for color , then finish poach on the stove . 175 ish for 30 minutes .
That's how I like to do that type anyway .
I have the water ready , then go right in when I get the color I like .

Then hang to dry . These are based on that recipe you showed me .
Heavy garlic .

 

[SmokyMose]

I see no issue follow that schedual .
I smoke for color , then finish poach on the stove . 175 ish for 30 minutes .
That's how I like to do that type anyway .
I have the water ready , then go right in when I get the color I like .
View attachment 733529
Then hang to dry . These are based on that recipe you showed me .
Heavy garlic .
View attachment 733530

That's pretty much my plan, Rich. They're stuffed now and drying for a bit before I move them to the smoker. I think part of the problem is terminology. When I hear "cold smoke" I think no heat.
I'm going to start them at 120 with an Amazn tube and bump the heat up gradually then move them to the S.V. to finish.

 

[chopsaw]

I'm going to start them at 120 with an Amazn tube and bump the heat up gradually then move them to the S.V. to finish.

Sound plan .
For me , since I'm poaching on the stove , I don't bump smoker temps . I dry at room temp , then use 120 or 130 as my smoker temp . When it gets the color I want , I cook on the stove . Usually about 3 hours .

Since the poaching liquid on the stove is higher than a SV temp would be , I know it's gonna finish in 30 minutes or less . That's why I don't worry about the sausage Internal temp in the smoker .
That 175 for 30 minutes on the stove is a " from raw " time for hog casings .

Your plan is solid .