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Question about binders

sausage joe

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I normally use soy protein concentrate for binder. I am thinking about trying this. It claims to be a blend of instantized sodium phosphates. This product is also called hunter’s special meat binder.  Has anyone tried this or have any opinion about this product. It can be found here, http://www.butcher-packer.com/index...id=895&zenid=05d7bacb654371e753258d3c182b92c8

Special meat binder (1lb)

$5.85

Here is a product which can eliminate the need for any other form of meat binder. Soy protein concentrate, milk powder, whey, starches, and gums are all binders which are used to retain water which makes you think you are getting more. These binders are ineffective for the most part of holding water and the natural juices which are in the meat at temperatures in excess of 165°F. In the meat industry these products are known as fillers and are basically used in cheaper meat formulas. To use the Natural Protein in the meat is the only way to make a wholesome product, and our Special Meat Binder is especially formulated to do just that. Just use 2 oz in 25 pounds of meat instead of soy protein concentrate or any other binder and enjoy a moist and tastier product.

sausage joe
 

DanMcG

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I use the super phosphate from B&P but I know BigGuy here uses the Special Meat Binder and if it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me. He makes excellent sausages
 

westby

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I'll hijack this post a bit if you don't mind and ask this question.  Are binders necessary or beneficial? We have never used them, but I know of a lot of guys that do.
 

DanMcG

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  Are binders necessary or beneficial? We have never used them, but I know of a lot of guys that do.
Not necessary but they really work in extracting the meat proteins which aids in holding extra water and fats while cooking making it a more juicier  product.

I don't use them in everything but something like a hot dog wouldn't be the same with out it.

Just my 2 cents
 
 

sausage joe

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Dan McG

how would you compare this binder to soy protein concentrate
 
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DanMcG

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Let me say that I'm just a novice at this sausage game, but I enjoy the science of making sausage. That being said, I have yet to tell the difference, they both do the job. The phosphates are suppose to be the best when it comes to binding, but to be honest most of my recipes are tweaked from already proven recipes from others and if it calls for one or the other , that's what I use.  I guess if they are used right , you won't know they're there.
 
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mballi3011

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I thought that you can subistute dried milk powder for the soy proteins stuff. I'm a hobbiest at this thing too.
 

DanMcG

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I thought that you can subistute dried milk powder for the soy proteins stuff. I'm a hobbiest at this thing too.
Yeap you're right Mark, I use it in many of my recipes.
 
 

grwolff

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I have infrequently been making sausages for years, using different binders, none of which has produced the desired results. A professional German sausage maker, Opa Jochim, has a number of posts on youtube for all kinds of sausages. Interestingly, I have not seen him use a binder on any. However, there is a protical for each that he invariably follows. He separately grinds (1) the lean meat first, (2) the pork belly second, and (3) the fat back last. Each of the total weight of each of his recipes includes finely chipped ice of 15%. When he cuts the meat, he first cuts the lean meat with 1/3 of the ice, then adds and cuts the pork belly with 1/3 of the ice, and lastly adds the fat back to the mixture with 1/3 of the ice.
It is my impression that extracted protein and cold are significant factors in the binding process and more protein will come from the lean meat than the fat.
I saw from another German vider, for weiss wurst, that the emulsified temperature should not exceed 14 degrees C. Based on the foregoing, I called a supplier of sausage making materials and was told that temperature is not a facterin binding. But if you look at recipes, they invariably tell you to keep meat cold, even when stuffing but do not state that it may relate to binding
There is an explanation on Nathan's Sausage Supplies why phosphates are added to sausage--to increase moisture and taste. When I was a child, we always wanted Kielbasa whic to seeing that agh squirted juice when pricked with a fork. I look forward to experiencing that again.
 

Polka

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I think...temperature has to do with causing / preventing fat-smear, and other texture ailments in the processing. I know temps can ruin the sausage of too high, and / or too fast. All sausage is best when processes as cold as possible. Boudin and Jatrnice being the only exceptions (they used cooked meat in the mixture and then stuffed and cooked again).
 
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I don't want to be out of line here, but we've made everything from Homemade Weiners, to Bratwurst, Polish Sausage etc. and I don't recall any of the recipes that I or my Aunts & Uncles have from my Grandfather who came here from Hannover Germany used Binders. We've always Hand Mixed our Sausage Blends for a Minimum of 5 minutes. If done properly and long enough your hands are going to feel like blocks of ice, but I guarantee that the Sausage Blend is going to be Blended well enough that you can pick up the entire 5 lbs of Meat with one hand. We do 5 lbs at a time for Food Safety Reason. Especially since I have to do everything by myself now. The Ice Water mixed with the Seasonings to make a Slurry to blend in with the Ground Pork or Whatever Protein Combination you're working with will Bind everything together just fine.
 

AM in MD

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I have infrequently been making sausages for years, using different binders, none of which has produced the desired results. A professional German sausage maker, Opa Jochim, has a number of posts on youtube for all kinds of sausages. Interestingly, I have not seen him use a binder on any. However, there is a protical for each that he invariably follows. He separately grinds (1) the lean meat first, (2) the pork belly second, and (3) the fat back last. Each of the total weight of each of his recipes includes finely chipped ice of 15%. When he cuts the meat, he first cuts the lean meat with 1/3 of the ice, then adds and cuts the pork belly with 1/3 of the ice, and lastly adds the fat back to the mixture with 1/3 of the ice.
It is my impression that extracted protein and cold are significant factors in the binding process and more protein will come from the lean meat than the fat.
I saw from another German vider, for weiss wurst, that the emulsified temperature should not exceed 14 degrees C. Based on the foregoing, I called a supplier of sausage making materials and was told that temperature is not a facterin binding. But if you look at recipes, they invariably tell you to keep meat cold, even when stuffing but do not state that it may relate to binding
There is an explanation on Nathan's Sausage Supplies why phosphates are added to sausage--to increase moisture and taste. When I was a child, we always wanted Kielbasa whic to seeing that agh squirted juice when pricked with a fork. I look forward to experiencing that again.
I too have been trying to figure out binding agents. I have watched numerous videos from Opa Jochen and I finally figured out his recipe and it does use a binder. His recipe has the abbreviation "KHM" which stands for Kotterhilfsmittel, or a binding agent. I just don't know what it is yet. I am looking at the product Special Meat Binder at www.butcher-packer.com and it states that it does not work above 165 degrees F.

I'm still looking, any advice would be appreciated!
 

DanMcG

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Just get some soy protein concentrate or non fat dried milk... those are the two most people use.
 

Polka

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I have used up all that I purchased over the past couple of years, and haven't bought any more for over a year. I don't think I need them anymore. Some old Czechs and Pols told me the same thing -- prepare your meat/s, and then mix in your salt and cure (if you are using cure), and put it away cold storage for a day or three -- the curing and salting will start the process of myosin development which is where you are going to get your natural bind. Ice cold and mix until you feel like you have blocks of ice for hands, as said above, and you should be good to go like all the oldtimers. My sausage has been much better for it..... Well, I think so. Best regards! Rex
 

poacherjoe

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I just made a batch of ring bologna and it was a do or don't on adding the binder . I didn't add any and I let the rings set in the fridge for a day and a half then I took them out and let them set at room temp for 3 hours and tossed them into the smoker at 120 for an hour with no smoke. Then I added the wood and increased the temp 10 degrees every hour till I got to 170 and left it there until the IT got to 153. Took them out and tossed them into an ice bath for 20 minutes and then hung them in the garage overnight. It was cold in the garage . Anyway they turned out perfect using 43mm collagen round casings. I did think that the smoke didn't seem to penetrate the casing as well as it does when I use fibrous casings but other than that the bologna got better tasting as the days went buy and the moisture was good not dry .
 

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