PID Tuning fun MES30

[kilohertz]

Hi all,

I finished building my REX C100 PID yesterday, played with it last night with a light bulb, watching the PID function do its thing, pretty neat seeing it learn after an hour it was able to keep the same SV value, cool.

Today I am finishing the MES mods, just need to add the smoke stack and larger air intake then I want to start the PID tuning. I am wondering what the best way is to tune the smoker? I don't want to experiment with meat, I was thinking a large bowl of water might simulate a normal load...

Looking for recommendations from those of you who have tuned your electric smokers.

Thanks!

 

[tallbm]

Hi all,

I finished building my REX C100 PID yesterday, played with it last night with a light bulb, watching the PID function do its thing, pretty neat seeing it learn after an hour it was able to keep the same SV value, cool.

Today I am finishing the MES mods, just need to add the smoke stack and larger air intake then I want to start the PID tuning. I am wondering what the best way is to tune the smoker? I don't want to experiment with meat, I was thinking a large bowl of water might simulate a normal load...

Looking for recommendations from those of you who have tuned your electric smokers.

Thanks!

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I think that if you put some foil pans in there on all of the racks it will be relevant. With that much airflow deflection you kind of get a worst case scenario and if the PID and temps can keep up, then chances are it does well with other types of standard loads.

As for tuning numbers I think a good ball park to start or work around the following numbers. Starting with P first and others at 0 then work up but after my research in the past with a few different PIDs these numbers may be pretty good to utilize.
P=5 I=210 D=208

 

[chopsaw]

Here's a pretty good thread on the subject . I talk about how I did mine starting at post 9 , but good info in the whole thread .

PID controller - Inkbird ITC-106VH

Hi everyone, i am new to the forum, I should have found this before!! So many things to read here.. So here is why i came for at first.. I have a bradley smoker, which i made a home made PID to control the temperature. I have been running it with my actual setup for 2 years, and i finaly took...

www.smokingmeatforums.com

 

[kilohertz]

Thanks guys!

I also just found this thread

https://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t...s-for-an-mes40-out-there.310173/#post-2253030...

I think I have enough info to get going...just need to wire up the 15 amp cct on the deck.

Cheers

 

[kilohertz]

Quick question on air intake opening on the bottom of the MES30 analog, I have put in the usual stainless smoke stack which is a 2 1/2" hole, has a damper built in, I don't want to put in a 3" hole for the mailbox mod yet, I may one day, but for now I would like an adjustable intake, I'm thinking a 1" hole and a ball valve for air control. Would 1" be enough air flow, inlcuding the drip pan hole and the gaps around the element socket?

Thanks

 

[chopsaw]

I missed that you had an analog . I would say set it up and start the tuning like I describe in that thread I linked . It should work itself out no matter what the air flow is . If you add more flow at a later date , you might have to adjust .
More to your question , 1" with a ball valve should work if that's what you want .
Just saying the " tune " should work with whatever you have . Changes made to the smoker later on might need adjustments .
Hands on is the best teacher .

 

[kilohertz]

Thank you, appreciate the replies.

I decided to hold off on drilling holes in the MES 30 and instead put my 1500W element in the Komodo cooker and I’m playing with tuning in that tonight with a rack of ribs. So now I have another question should the tuning be done with or without pellet smoke tray going? It is after all another heat source and would certainly influence the PID tuning.

As an electronics tech, and a barbeque nut, these two elements of electronics mixed with smoking for me is a lot of fun.

I started with P of 5, I of 0 and D of 0. It’s amazing it rose up to 230 did it’s a little pulse on and off and it’s been holding at 230 +\- 1* exactly for the last half an hour. Cool beans!

Cheers

 

[tallbm]

Thank you, appreciate the replies.

I decided to hold off on drilling holes in the MES 30 and instead put my 1500W element in the Komodo cooker and I’m playing with tuning in that tonight with a rack of ribs. So now I have another question should the tuning be done with or without pellet smoke tray going? It is after all another heat source and would certainly influence the PID tuning.

As an electronics tech, and a barbeque nut, these two elements of electronics mixed with smoking for me is a lot of fun.

I started with P of 5, I of 0 and D of 0. It’s amazing it rose up to 230 did it’s a little pulse on and off and it’s been holding at 230 +\- 1* exactly for the last half an hour. Cool beans!

Cheers

View attachment 669259

The heat generated from the pellets is almost negligible, maybe like 15 degrees overall added.

I say this from cold smoking experiences I have. With the PID regulating temp it will not care that the pellets are producing some heat it will still cut temp on/off from the heating element to hit and old the set temp taking into account the heat from the pellets. The PID won't know where that 15 degrees is coming from and will read it as though it's from the heating element.

 

[dr k]

Parameters vary even with the same make of PID. Auber sent me this chart for their Bradley Smoker PID as you can see at the bottom row, but to use this chart with the WS-1510ELPM Auber PID many of us have, you have to Divide the P column by 10 to get the correct value so the out of the box setting for the WS-1510ELPM would be P 7, I 600 and D 150. Hopefully someone has the same make and model you have to share values.

 

[dr k]

Thank you, appreciate the replies.

I decided to hold off on drilling holes in the MES 30 and instead put my 1500W element in the Komodo cooker and I’m playing with tuning in that tonight with a rack of ribs. So now I have another question should the tuning be done with or without pellet smoke tray going? It is after all another heat source and would certainly influence the PID tuning.

As an electronics tech, and a barbeque nut, these two elements of electronics mixed with smoking for me is a lot of fun.

I started with P of 5, I of 0 and D of 0. It’s amazing it rose up to 230 did it’s a little pulse on and off and it’s been holding at 230 +\- 1* exactly for the last half an hour. Cool beans!

Cheers

View attachment 669259

I like P mode better than full PID for fast preheating and big packer brisket and butts. P=1 and I&D =0 for the Mes 40. May be different in the smaller Mes 30. In this mode Full output to one degree below set temp and over shoots but you let out heat to put a brisket in and recovers in 40 minutes. Then you can reset to PID to maintain. P mode is the degrees below set temp before pulsing. So you P=5 is full output then 4 degrees below set point is 4/5 output, then 3/5, then 2/5, then 1/5 and off at set temp. I tried the out of the box Auber p 7, I 600 and D 150 and it came out of full power 25 degrees below set temp that took forever to get to set temp. So it wouldn't get to seven degrees before set temp in PID mode due to the values in I and D were above zero. If you want to get to the exact degree below set temp you need P mode you did. With P=1 with the Auber on the way down coast, even though the resolution is in single degrees it flashes at .5 degree below set temp for .5/1 for 50% output and full power at one degree below set temp for the Mes 40 air volume and a cold full packer brisket load. This would be the fastest response with the sensor at food level. the greater the P value in P mode the slower response one degree below set temp to maintain temp with bigger loads of food. I cook ribs, brisket and butts naked the whole time, no liquids in drip pans at 265-275. Lower temps and lower loads like brats and fish ramping up from 145 to 165 over 4 hours I like chopsaw PID mode P 5, I 208 and D 210 after P mode preheating. If P=0 regardless of the I and D values, then it's an on/off controller at set temp like the stock controllers. Hopefully these values are compatible with your PID.

 

[chopsaw]

I started with P of 5, I of 0 and D of 0. It’s amazing it rose up to 230 did it’s a little pulse on and off and it’s been holding at 230 +\- 1* exactly for the last half an hour.

That might be what that ceramic cooker likes , and all the setting it needs .

 

[dr k]

That might be what that ceramic cooker likes , and all the setting it needs .

The chart I posted for turning a crockpot into a stir free sous vide or yogurt maker would be PD mode and have the parameters P 4, I 0 and D 40 for the no over shoot for the WS_1510ELPM. I did this with a 6 qt analog dial set to high since the digital stays off when the power goes out. I did this for a couple years but had to get a SV stick circulator for big chuck roasts. It works great. I just unscrewed the handle from the glass lid and theaded the multi use probe for sous vide or smoker that came with the PID through the hole and held the probe wire in place with a wooden clothes line spring pin inside and out.

 

[kilohertz]

Thanks guys for all the great help, appreciate it.

I decided to cut the 3" hole in the bottom for the mailbox mod which I will eventually incorporate so once that is done I will be playing with the PID again today. I put a pork shoulder in the Kamodo with charcoal for today, it's humming along at 235-240* which will leave me to play with the MES30 analog.

I think I have a pretty good handle on the PID parameters now and will get started shortly and let you know how I make out. My controller is the REX C-100, which I think is very similar to the MyPin and Inkbird (I also have an Inkbird 106VH which I bought for my brew setup, which still isn't built, it's on the "roundtoit" list.

Cheers

PS one thing that will make a huge difference to the tuning and response time is the thermocouple, I'm curious to know what each of you are using. Mine is the K, threaded end with the little blob right at the end of the threads. I have wrapped a small piece of tinfoil around it to give it a bit more area to sample from. I know it is not very fast, WAY slower than my Maverick meat probe which is darn near instant.

 

[kilohertz]

One other question for the Mes30 analog, what’s the maximum temperature empty that the stock controller will allow? I think the manual says 375, I’m starting my tuning at 250 and go from there. I just don’t want the controller never being able to reach the top temperature.

Thx

 

[tallbm]

Thanks guys for all the great help, appreciate it.

I decided to cut the 3" hole in the bottom for the mailbox mod which I will eventually incorporate so once that is done I will be playing with the PID again today. I put a pork shoulder in the Kamodo with charcoal for today, it's humming along at 235-240* which will leave me to play with the MES30 analog.

I think I have a pretty good handle on the PID parameters now and will get started shortly and let you know how I make out. My controller is the REX C-100, which I think is very similar to the MyPin and Inkbird (I also have an Inkbird 106VH which I bought for my brew setup, which still isn't built, it's on the "roundtoit" list.

Cheers

PS one thing that will make a huge difference to the tuning and response time is the thermocouple, I'm curious to know what each of you are using. Mine is the K, threaded end with the little blob right at the end of the threads. I have wrapped a small piece of tinfoil around it to give it a bit more area to sample from. I know it is not very fast, WAY slower than my Maverick meat probe which is darn near instant.

I'm using this K type probe and added a probe aligator clip to the end of it so I can easily clip to the center of the bottom rack from the underside of the rack:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0142RXG84/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

One other question for the Mes30 analog, what’s the maximum temperature empty that the stock controller will allow? I think the manual says 375, I’m starting my tuning at 250 and go from there. I just don’t want the controller never being able to reach the top temperature.

Thx

I thought the masterbuilt analog smokers went to 400-475F temp.

I don't think your settings will creep to 375F but I imagine if you have the stock controller open to full blast and you set your PID to 375F, then it would likely hit and hold 375F pretty well even if tuned around the 250F range.

For poultry smokes you will want to be able to do 325F smokes so you can keep the skin from being rubbery. Beyond poultry you don't really need to go that high unless you want to. Brisket, Pork Butts, and Ribs don't care what temp you cook them at as long as you aren't burning them so higher temps can be nice :D

 

[kilohertz]

I went grocery shopping and came back and the PID MES30 was spot on 275F, just like I set it. I tried auto tune just for fun and it came up with P=51, I=610, D=140, mmm, that didn't work, dropped to 245 from a 275 set point, so I tried P=3, I=200 and D=0, so far it's good, moving from 275F to 325F, we'll see how it responds. Shoulder on the Kamodo is 160* and looking good. need to make Kaiser buns and potato salad...all while I'm playing with the PID and trying to fit in a beer or 2.

Thanks for the help.

Cheers

 

[chopsaw]

Everyone should try auto tune once . That way you know it doesn't work .

 

[tallbm]

I went grocery shopping and came back and the PID MES30 was spot on 275F, just like I set it. I tried auto tune just for fun and it came up with P=51, I=610, D=140, mmm, that didn't work, dropped to 245 from a 275 set point, so I tried P=3 and I=200, so far it's good, moving from 275F to 325F, we'll see how it responds. Shoulder on the Kamodo is 160* and looking good. need to make Kaiser buns and potato salad...all while I'm playing with the PID and trying to fit in a beer or 2.

Thanks for the help.

Cheers

Sounds like you are well on your way!

FYI, if you REALLY want to mode your Analog 30, there was a post where someone took apart the interior and lined with insulation. I think fireplace/oven fiberglass super high temp insulation in those hollow walls.

Something to consider if you are really going to hot rod this thing :D

 

[kilohertz]

Sounds like you are well on your way!

FYI, if you REALLY want to mode your Analog 30, there was a post where someone took apart the interior and lined with insulation. I think fireplace/oven fiberglass super high temp insulation in those hollow walls.

Something to consider if you are really going to hot rod this thing :D

Yes I read that thread several times, I made pretty much all the mods except the insulation. I am planning to start with chips, not pellets as I like the taste/smell better, who knows, I may switch to the AMNPS pellet system, which I already have. I don't envision using it much at high temps as I have so many other smokers that can hit the high temps, I may one day pull it all apart and insulate, probably best to do it now while it's clean though.

Cheers

PS PID hit 325 no problem and just sat there, going to try door opening now and dial in D once I get the potatoes cooked.

 

[tallbm]

Yes I read that thread several times, I made pretty much all the mods except the insulation. I am planning to start with chips, not pellets as I like the taste/smell better, who knows, I may switch to the AMSPS pellet system, which I already have. I don't envision using it much at high temps as I have so many other smokers that can hit the high temps, I may one day pull it all apart and insulate, probably best to do it now while it's clean though.

Cheers

PS PID hit 325 no problem and just sat there, going to try door opening now an dial in D once I get the potatos cooked.

It's all downhill from here :D