Little Help with Temperature on MES 30" Needed.

[jted]

Well, how were the Ribs. However they were the process will get better and smother with practice.
Your smoker will heat over 300 degrees. You just saw it. The manufacture does not want you to smoke over 275. It is all about liabilities. You also have a over heat switch in the box that turns the smorer off if it gets to hot. ?You will find a temperature setting that your smoker works the best mine is about 242.
Dave gave you the answer to your temp swing. Volumes have been written on the subject, he boiled it down to
a few words. Just remember the box temps fluctuate from rack to rack and left to right. You can drive your self crazy worrying about the temps. Enjoy the process and the wonderful smoked meat. Let us know how the apple and cherry pellets burned. Jted

 

[johnmeyer]

The electronic probe thermometers are usually very accurate. While it is good to do an ice bath and then a boiling water test just to make sure, you usually find that the probe is within a degree or two of 32 and 212 (assuming you do the test correctly -- it is actually a little tricky).

Several other issues are the more likely cause. The notorious MES hot spots would be my first suspicion. All cooking devices have huge variations in temperature from one point to the next. The earlier MES smokers (like mine) have the heating element AND the vent on the right side of the smoker. This creates a heat chimney, and the right rear side of the smoker becomes much hotter than the rest of the smoker. The MES temp variations are, in my experience, much worse than most cooking devices, so this might be what you are seeing.

The other issue is the "load" in the smoker. This is very much like the situation with a refrigerator. In both cases, when empty, the only thing that is hot (or cold) is the air itself. Since air is a good insulator, you can end up with huge variations in what you measure with a probe that you hang inside the enclosure, depending on where you hang it. However, if you fill up that enclosure, and then measure the contents of that enclosure after a long period of being in that environment, you'll find that the temp variations are minimal.

The final thing is the MES water tray. Do you have it filled up, and if you do, what is in it? Virtually everyone in this forum recommends not filling the MES water tray with any water because the enclosure is so small that the water coming from the food provides sufficient humidity for smoke adhesion. However, some of those same people recommend filling the tray with some sort of heavy inert material, like sand, in order to provide both a thermal mass (like filling up the compartment with food) and also a thermal barrier between the heating coils and the rest of the enclosure so as to moderate the temperature swings. Evening out the temperature swings also helps reduce hot spots.

 

[THW]

I finally got out of bed this morning but am a little short on sleep.

The seemingly wild fluctuation of temperatures had me flustered to say the least. The Bluetooth read out was telling me the temperature was right at 225* and only wavering 4 or 5 degrees up and down. The Thermoworks Smoke was telling me the air temps were up over 300*. What to do, what to do. I checked the batteries on the Smoke, pulled them and put them back in, since I didn't know what else to do. That was just before the boiling water test which showed the Smoke working right where it should be.

Then when adding the foil, I put the air temp probe back in connected to the rack the rids were on. And stuck in the IT probe. After a while when the smoker temp got back up to where it stabilized I could see it was way below the temperature I needed. To get the inside air temperature up to the 225 I needed, I had to set the temp on the smoker to 260* That meant it had been in 3 hours at a low temperature. But the smoking went on. After the two hours in the foil, I tore the top of the foil off but left the underneath foil in place. Figured with the outside temp at 42* that would be quicker. They were supposed to be done at 10pm. That was 6 hours. But again, I was going to go by the IT to determine when they were done so on we went. I hit that block. What a block, it went on and on. The air temp at 225* per the Smoke readout but the IT stayed at 164* for what seemed like forever. 10 pm, then 11pm then midnight with no more than a smudge of change. At 12:30 I pulled the rack and put it in the oven in the house. I set the temp to 260* and had the air temp and IT still being monitored. At 1am, the IT started to rise. I just waited and at 2:30am, I had the IT of 205* that I was waiting for.

I will have to say they were black as could be with a bark like a hundred year old tree. But they were FOB and tender as could be in the middle. I ate my fill since the wife had long since gone to bed. It had a great flavor. I did ask her if she was hungry but only got a mumble which I took as a no.

I will have to do dome thinking about the temperature capabilities on my unit and if there is anything I can do the make it more accurate. I am a little worried that if it is actually 35 degrees below what the readout says can I get the 275* out of it I would need for chicken. I really like the capabilities of the MES but wish the temperature controls were more accurate.

Now, I am more determined than ever to get my next rack of ribs done right. All that cold air I let in as my heat was lost because I was too slow will be the first thing I will do better.

Sorry but no pictures. At a little after 2am, I was not thinking about pictures.

Thanks for all the guidance. When you are just starting it is a real help.

Tom

 

[daveomak]

When you opened the foil, you exposed "wet ribs, apple juice" to the air... that caused the dreaded stall... wet meat evaporating liquid... just like you sweating... It cools the meat...
When you wrap any meat, it must be air tight or evaporative cooling is imminent...

I will have to say they were black as could be with a bark like a hundred year old tree


Too much smoke could be the problem ... or
I think that was due to the many hours they spent at "275"... Normally, smoke is added around 140 ish... then wrap the ribs and crank up the heat for 3 ish hours, then unwapped and high heat applied to form or reform the bark....

 

[THW]

Hi John and thanks for the thoughts. I think one of my first mistakes was that I took the rack right out of the fridge and when they went in the smoker, they were still cold. Next time I think I will have them out to get then close to room temp before starting.

My MES has the door latch on the right and the top vent on the back left corner. So, from the chip loader, on the right side, everything needs to cross the cabinet to get out the vent. The 2.5 generation also has a very large oval shaped water tray. I had read from many that water was not needed so I not only did not need it, but I left it out completely, along with the chip tray since I was using the 5 x 8 AMNPS.

Being a small smoker, I cut the rack in half. Smaller half on top shelf and bigger half on second rack down. Third rack down was an aluminum foil pan that would catch the drippings and had about 2 inches or more of open space all the way around. I thought that, rather than the big water tray spreading out the temps, this pan would do that. the forth or bottom rack had the AMNPS centered under the foil pan to protect it from the drippings and spread the smoke out.

And then there is the heating element which on the 2.5 generation has a good sized shield over the top to also spread out the heat as it rises.

I am sure each time I use this smoker, I will learn more about what I am doing. I learned with the 30"er setting on the ground, when I opened the door, I got a really good face full of smoke. That added to the time I had the door open loosing heat because I was coughing my head off some. I will come up with a platform to lift the smoker so smoke released will go up and not right in my face.

Anyway, that is the best description of what I has and how it was setup.

With the boiling test and me being at 840 feet above sea level the Smoke was right on where it should be. I am not sure it was functioning right at first. I can't see getting a reading of 340* from a smoker that has a top setting of 275*. I did finally pull the batteries and I am not sure why I did that but it did start working right from then on, (IF) the Smoke was even having the problem. Those cables on the probes can be a pain. Always seemed twisted up leaning toward tangled. But they work.

Tom

 

[tropics]

Tom Sorry to hear that took so long.Your first post had that thing cooking hotter then what it was set at.Guess you will have to check that one at a few temps to figure it out.
Richie

 

[dr k]

Maybe place the Smoke probes by the mes toggle switch looking controller sensor on the back wall. If they are all similar, then the rack closest to them is your go to rack. The problem is the sensor has to be somewhere and if it is accurate then the other three racks maybe off. I have a Auber WS-1510ELPM PID and have been using it on my analog crockpot with great results as a sou vide and will use it to control the Mes 40 Gen 1 when I get 10 minutes of decent weather to make 4 wire cuts and 2 splices to bypass the Mes controller. Depending on the day I can average 250-260*f smoker temps when the Mes controller is maxed at 275*f. Last night was 42*f outside and averaging 250*f. The PID sensor can be placed at any level so at least I can get any temp but will keep it under 280*f. I do chicken on the grill so no need to hassle with rubber chicken skin from the Mes.

I finally got out of bed this morning but am a little short on sleep.

The seemingly wild fluctuation of temperatures had me flustered to say the least. The Bluetooth read out was telling me the temperature was right at 225* and only wavering 4 or 5 degrees up and down. The Thermoworks Smoke was telling me the air temps were up over 300*. What to do, what to do. I checked the batteries on the Smoke, pulled them and put them back in, since I didn't know what else to do. That was just before the boiling water test which showed the Smoke working right where it should be.

Then when adding the foil, I put the air temp probe back in connected to the rack the rids were on. And stuck in the IT probe. After a while when the smoker temp got back up to where it stabilized I could see it was way below the temperature I needed. To get the inside air temperature up to the 225 I needed, I had to set the temp on the smoker to 260* That meant it had been in 3 hours at a low temperature. But the smoking went on. After the two hours in the foil, I tore the top of the foil off but left the underneath foil in place. Figured with the outside temp at 42* that would be quicker. They were supposed to be done at 10pm. That was 6 hours. But again, I was going to go by the IT to determine when they were done so on we went. I hit that block. What a block, it went on and on. The air temp at 225* per the Smoke readout but the IT stayed at 164* for what seemed like forever. 10 pm, then 11pm then midnight with no more than a smudge of change. At 12:30 I pulled the rack and put it in the oven in the house. I set the temp to 260* and had the air temp and IT still being monitored. At 1am, the IT started to rise. I just waited and at 2:30am, I had the IT of 205* that I was waiting for.

I will have to say they were black as could be with a bark like a hundred year old tree. But they were FOB and tender as could be in the middle. I ate my fill since the wife had long since gone to bed. It had a great flavor. I did ask her if she was hungry but only got a mumble which I took as a no.

I will have to do dome thinking about the temperature capabilities on my unit and if there is anything I can do the make it more accurate. I am a little worried that if it is actually 35 degrees below what the readout says can I get the 275* out of it I would need for chicken. I really like the capabilities of the MES but wish the temperature controls were more accurate.

Now, I am more determined than ever to get my next rack of ribs done right. All that cold air I let in as my heat was lost because I was too slow will be the first thing I will do better.

Sorry but no pictures. At a little after 2am, I was not thinking about pictures.

Thanks for all the guidance. When you are just starting it is a real help.

Tom

 

[THW]

When you opened the foil, you exposed "wet ribs, apple juice" to the air... that caused the dreaded stall... wet meat evaporating liquid... just like you sweating... It cools the meat...
When you wrap any meat, it must be air tight or evaporative cooling is imminent...

I will have to say they were black as could be with a bark like a hundred year old tree


Too much smoke could be the problem ... or
I think that was due to the many hours they spent at "275"... Normally, smoke is added around 140 ish... then wrap the ribs and crank up the heat for 3 ish hours, then unwapped and high heat applied to form or reform the bark....

Hi Dave I am sure you are right about the evaporation causing the cooling and block. I thought I had the foil well sealed but with a meet probe in, it could not be totally sealed.

I think the main problem at first was starting win cold ribs. Second, I was not trusting the Thermoworks reading fir the air temp so I was going by the MES numbers which was 35 degrees lower then needed. Then I took too long in cold night air when I had to open the door to do things and lost cabinet temperature. The final mistake that messed my temperature up was since the cook went longer than planned, when the set time ended, it shuts off the heat. I was waiting on some type of alarm but instead I got an unexpected quite cooling effect.

The thick bark I think was just caused by the long time in. 10 hours for what should be a 6 hour slow cook is a big difference. And then, after feeling behind, I had to crank the heat up just to get it to rise in IT. When in the Kitchen oven, the temp was 260* which on my oven will vary 25 to 30* over that and 8 to 10* under as it cycles. Two hours or more of that put a heavy bark on it. I had planned on smoke in the MES for the first three hours so I only filled one of the three rows in the AMNPS tray. So, I don't think over smoking was an issue. And the meat had a very good test with no bitterness in taste.

All useful thought though so thanks.

I had so many issues on this smoke that there is a ton to talk about and learn from. Maybe that is a good thing for my education.

Tom

 

[THW]

Kurt, Thanks for your thoughts. I will be doing some testing with the air probe of the Thermoworks Smoke to see where the heat is, how far the MES readouts are off and how much of a swing it has. Once I determine that I will figure out id improvements can be made. The only thing that worries me a little is since I am sure the MES numbers are off by quite a bit, does that mean instead of being able to get the 275 out of it am I limited to setting it at 275* but having it only put out 245*.

Time will tell.

 

[tallbm]

THW, I didn't see anyone mention this about the MES so I will go ahead and give you the run-down because you are hitting the common issues that all MES owners encounter.

1. The MES temp probes (smoker and meat probes) are NOTORIOUS for being off. Follow what your Thermo says. You are actually blessed that your unit goes over 275F rather than being unable to hit 275F like was my case. I assume your thermometer is a dual probe unit. Use 1 probe at meat level as a back up smoker probe. Use the 2nd probe as your meat probe.

2. The 300F+ readings are likely caused by hot spots in your smoker. The MES heating element is generally "right side" oriented. So the right side will be hotter than the middle or left side of your smoker. ALSO, as with most cooking devices (smoker, oven, grill, etc.) it is generally hotter at the back rather than the front where the smoker opens.
Understand that the hottest spots will be right side and back of racks.

3. You will not have even temps at different rack levels. The lowest rack will be the hottest and probably the most consistent and is what I use most of the time. ALSO you will NOT even have same temps across a single rack level. The right side will be hotter than the middle and the left side being the coldest. So right, middle, left are hottest to least hot temps and the back of the rack will be hotter than the middle or front end of the rack.

4. Temp swings. This is just how the MES units work. I had 35F temp swings that I was bothered with because I required/desired tighter temp control for doing sausage and bacon to avoid melting the fat out. If you don't plan to do either then it may not be an issue for you, just know that this is the nature of the MES temp swing design.

5. Top max temp. Going over 275F is not a bad thing. When smoking chicken the skin comes out leathery unless you can smoke at about 325F. If you take advantage of your hot spots (lower rack, back-right corner) you may be able to produce chicken with edible skin in your MES.

6. You are using an AMNPS so this really doesn't apply to you but it is good to know anyhow. The MES is reported to produce little or no smoke at temps 200F and lower. This is an issue for sausage, bacon, and jerky makers. The AMNPS solves this problem.


You have the right idea of continuing to work with your unit and learn the quirks. Just keep in mind the points I raised above because they seem to be the same things almost all MES owners must deal with including yourself :)

If you end up like me and want/need more precise control over your MES, there are things you can do with a simple rewire and a PID controller but that may be some time down the road.

On your next rack of ribs try this.

-Use the bottom rack
-Set one of your Thermo probes at meat level as a back up for the smoker probe temp and use this probe to guide your set temp adjustments
-Use the other Thermo probe as a meat probe in your ribs (not touching the bone)
-Apply smoke with the AMNPS
-Toothpick test or pull the ribs around 195-198F for bite off the bone ribs; or 200-203F for the borderline of bite off and fall off the bone ribs
-Eat like a king!!!

Let me know if all/any of this info helps or you have any questions :)

 

[dr k]

Kurt, Thanks for your thoughts. I will be doing some testing with the air probe of the Thermoworks Smoke to see where the heat is, how far the MES readouts are off and how much of a swing it has. Once I determine that I will figure out id improvements can be made. The only thing that worries me a little is since I am sure the MES numbers are off by quite a bit, does that mean instead of being able to get the 275 out of it am I limited to setting it at 275* but having it only put out 245*.

Time will tell.

I'm not sure if MB considers the machine defective if your 35* low on some racks but the one by the sensor does get to 275*. I've only used two racks at a time. I also wonder if heat stacking occurs at the top rack so it's hotter than the middle two racks.

 

[THW]

Thanks for the suggestions guys. Now, I am not sure the MES ever got the temperature over the 300* temp like the air probe said. The temp was set at 225* and that is what the MES readout said with a 5 degree fluctuation showing. The Thermoworks Smoke air probe was attached to the top front left part of the shelf. It has a mounting clip so it will not touch any part of the rack. That was the first use of a new meat thermometer and showing over a hundred degrees above what the "set Temp" was at doesn't sound reasonable. Then, after I removed the batteries and re installed them, then the Thermoworks Probe consistently showed that the air temp was 35 degrees below what the MES said. So, when I had the "Set Temp" at 225 for the first 3 hours, I was actually getting 190*.

The Thermowoeks Smoke is supposed to be a very accurate meat thermometer and although I think it was wrong at first, I think it is working correctly now. for the first 3 hours, I did not use the meat probe but put it in when I did the foil wrap.

My plans are to check the temperatures in different locations in the MES and record the results for future knowledge.

Then if the temps are way below what the unit is supposed to be capable of, I will contact MES Support and see what they say about this new unit. No complaints at this point. May be a simple fix.

Here is a final thought. If the external air temp probe started out telling me that the smoker temperature was 115 degrees above the set temperature, and then after removing and reinstalling the batteries, the external air temp probe said the temp was consistently 35 degrees below what the set temp was. There is no way that there was not a glitch somewhere there.

Anyway, I will do some checking and learn more.

Thanks all
Tom

 

[tallbm]

The boil test will tell if your Thermo probes are way off or not. It is 212F for boiling water. I've had probes off between 1-6 degrees or so. Lucky for my HeaterMeter PID I can enter OFFSET values to handle the discrepancies in the probe readings and get the number I need :D

 

[THW]

talcum, I agree with what you are saying about the boil test. And I did the boil test and it came out right on. I am at an elevation of 840 ft and looking at the boil temp for that elevation it was right on. 110.3 if I remember right.

Now with that said. What I have been trying to say so folks would understand it was that when I first took the unit (Smoke) out of the box, there was a plastic strip that went into the battery case to keep the batteries disconnected until a user got it. I opened the battery cover and pulled the plastic piece out. When I did, the battery came out with it and so I put it back in. Now, that is all pretty simple. BUT, while the temp was set to 225*on the MES, and the MES digital sensor was saying the temp was going back and forth from 119* to 225*, the Thermoworks Smoke digital air temp of the readout said the temp was climbing to 340*. I don't think that is an accurate reading at all.
NOW, I took the Thermoworks Smoke air temp probe out of the MES, opened the battery compartment, removed the batteries and checked which way they should be put in. I did like the battery image showed and re-installed the AAs. That is when I did the boil test and it came out perfect.

AFTER that battery check and boil test the Thermoworks Smoke seemed to be working just the way it should.

But it also showed that the MES was actually 35 degrees lower in temp than what the MES readout was saying. An example is when the MES readout was saying 225* the "Smoke" was saying 190*. The first 3 hours of the rib cook was at 190* not 225*. Once I figured that out, I raised the set temperature up to 260*, so I could get the actual temp up to the 225* temp it was supposed to be at for the ribs.

Now, that is telling me that the max temp my MES will put out when set at the designed max of 275* would be 240*. The true temperature is 35 degrees below what the MES read out is telling me.

Now, that is as clear as I can make it.

My thoughts are that the 340* could not have been accurate when the MES readout was stable at about 225*. I don't know what was wrong with the smoke but something was. NOW, it is doing fine and I wander if a battery was backwards but am not going to put one in backwards to see.

ONE important note. I have owned the MES 30" gen 2.5 for 3 weeks and this was the first time it was used. I called Masterbuilt today and talked to Ashlee, one of their support people. I explained what had occurred and that the actual temperature was consistently 35 degrees below what the readout indicated. Ashlee asked me a couple of questions like "was I using an extension cord" which I wasn't, and in a moment, she said they were sending me a new power circuit board and element. Hopefully that will correct the low temp offset.

I have not problem when something has an issue when I get support like that. Very pleasant and very helpful to make their product right.

OK I hope I made that understandable.

 

[THW]

And you are so right that having an adjustable readout to correct for an offset temp would be wonderful.

 

[dr k]

If the smoker was actually 340* the safety snap disk would have opened the circuit, dropping temps as the controller was calling for heat. So I guess your Smoke therm had some kind of temporary anomaly.

 

[THW]

That has always been my thought dr k, because getting those temps when the MES readout was at 225* didn't make sense to me. But the Smoke seems to be working correctly now. I do think it was something to do with the batteries but I was using 99% of my brain cells thinking about smoking that rack if ribs and the 1% left for everything else wasn't up to the task of paying attention to battery position when I took them out and re-installed them. O Well.

I am not a fan of that name for the Thermoworks "Smoke". I always worry if I call it just "Smoke" in a conversation, that it will be misunderstood to mean the MES or smoker. That may just be in my head but I think about it each time I use the word.

 

[tallbm]

Now, that is telling me that the max temp my MES will put out when set at the designed max of 275* would be 240*. The true temperature is 35 degrees below what the MES read out is telling me.

Now, that is as clear as I can make it.

Ah I see. It is clear now.

I had the same kind of issue that I couldn't really hit 275F. I was lucky to hit 260F.
Hopefully the new controller will fix the issue, I doubt the heating element is bad but who knows.

All I can suggest is to use the bottom rack for the hottest temps if the issue isn't really ever fixed.
If things are never fixed then we can talk more about a simple rewire and moving to a PID controller if you like.
I know the idea sounds heartbreaking at this point with your brand new smoker but really you would be upgrading to a high quality smoker.

The goal is to make the best smoked food possible and once you see the results and your new ability to produce basically any smoked item you want, then the heartache of having to modify your MES completely disappears... I've been there :)

 

[THW]

talon, I have been reading a lot and though I did look for it, I have not been able to find what PID actually stand for. Would you define it for me?

 

[Rings Я Us]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller