Immersion bacon curing - lab test results

[pops6927]

I'm outta here, thanks Wade for the testing!  After 5 strokes, the only thing I don't understand is any understanding.... :)

 

[wade]

Hi Ghengis

I am not going to get into long discussions with you as from what I have seen from your posts I suspect that you may have not fully read or understood the flow of the threads and therefore the purpose of the testing. From your last comments I think that we are actually concerned about exactly the same thing, however, for some reason, you appear to be trying to portray that I am thinking something different.

I will though correct a point that you have made above.

The meat samples were all single joints of ~1 Kg each and were each cured in 10 litre containers with 5 litres of brine. Not massive I know but the kind of size that many home curers here will be using. The photo that you have chosen to show above are 4 of the joints being displayed in a gastronorm tray for the photograph AFTER they have been cured, rested, cut in half and the test samples cut from the centre of each. The test samples are the ones vac packed at the back. To see the joints as they were actually cured please look back at the threads.

 
There was no test even needed

A simple cursory observation of the brine recipe revealed the nitrite to be out of whack by a factor of approximately 12.

To actually test such an lopsided recipe, respectfully, amounted to an exercise of the obvious.

DDF has a wonderful brine recipe generator on his website. If the purpose was to test the "10% assumption" a solid brine recipe known to be within the guidelines would have been the preferred and reasonable choice.

At least the product post-test would have been safe and edible to all members of the family, not just the mother in law.

The frustrating thing about this discussion Ghengis, is that Atomicsmoke and I TOTALLY AGREE with what you have posted above. The recipe does look to be totally out of whack however DDF was supporting it as being valid for immersion curing based upon the "Method 1" calculation in the Handbook - which uses the 10% take up factor. He continued to support it throughout the thread and later provided the evidence from the Handbook to support this method and calculation. At this point, when you have one prominent member supporting this brine method, (which appeared to be validated by the USDA) and another prominent member widely recommending a brine which has almost 10x less cure in it (that he assures us had been commercially tested in the past) what else can you do to determine which is correct - but test?

I am sure that DDF has a number of great recipes, and I do intend trying some of them. These tests though were to check the one that he was supporting from the Prague Powder #1 thread and the accuracy of the Ppm calculation from the Handbook that he used.

Wade

 

[wade]

 
As soon as I read DDF had supported the Prague Powder #1 recipe -- I had that sinking feeling, I was certain I was wrong -- a misplaced decimal in my calculator.(little wonder DDF has kept his beak out of this clusterflop)

I took your 5.47kg brine weight and extrapolated that at a 10% inclusion rate this 5.47kg of brine would be sufficient to produce 54700 grams of product.

In my opinion the tests should be done on full size bellies and hams first to validate the cure recipes, then tested with small sized pieces if the desire is to provide a tutorial for curing small sized pieces.

Hi Ghenges

Yes I think we agree. As an injection this would be suitable for 54.7 Kg of product and would probably result in the calculated Ppm. However in the thread it was being supported as an immersion brine and part of the Ppm calculation included the 10% pickup based upon the weight increase of the meat. Like you, we thought that this just appeared wrong and needed questioning.

I agree that if being used for commercial purposes then full size bellies or loins would be ideal to test with. However this was being supported as a method for home curing where 1-2 Kg joints are probably more the norm. The testing was therefore designed to determine what would happen in a "typical" home curing environment. More test results would certainly be beneficial and as I will be sending a stream of bacon and salmon samples to the labs for testing over the next few months I intend to include some additional samples to check the reproducibility of these results.

Wade

 

[smokin monkey]

We'll Wade, :PDT_Armataz_01_09: just going to put my Tin Hat on before I join in on this one!!!!

Thank you for taking the time in carrying out these trials.

I have read through all they posts on this thread, and a little amused at "some" of the replies you got.

It is my understanding, that you choses the two "Most Popular" or "Most Discussed" methods of Curing/Brining on the Forum. These two methods have had many searches or members pointing them "Newbies" to them. What you have done is carried out your own tests, at costs to you. From the results you have produced, it's surley down to each memeber to take the results and use them as they see fit. If they want to consume Bacon with high levels, then it's their choice, just pointing out that this level will no kill, was not you giving the Green Light to fill your boots with it, but just a statement of fact.

One last point, the trial sizes you conducted this tests on are the average size that most Home Smokers would use.

Once again, many people appreciate the effort you put in.

Steve

 

[diggingdogfarm]

The frustrating thing about this discussion Ghengis, is that Atomicsmoke and I TOTALLY AGREE with what you have posted above. The recipe does look to be totally out of whack however DDF was supporting it as being valid for immersion curing based upon the "Method 1" calculation in the Handbook - which uses the 10% take up factor. He continued to support it throughout the thread and later provided the evidence from the Handbook to support this method and calculation. At this point, when you have one prominent member supporting this brine method, (which appeared to be validated by the USDA) and another prominent member widely recommending a brine which has almost 10x less cure in it (that he assures us had been commercially tested in the past) what else can you do to determine which is correct - but test?

I told you before that it's not my method, it's the USDA's method.
Their nitrite limits and their methods of calculation.
If you have a problem with that, you need to communicate with the USDA!!!!!
It was referenced because that's the policy of this forum.
Please, honestly and accurately call it what it is...thank you very much!!!

I recommend the equilibrium curing method and I've pointed that out several times, especially in the universal cure calculator thread.

There's a lot that I could point out here, but especially, the residual nitrite and nitrate permitted in the finished product* (after all processing) is 200 ppm nitrite and 500 ppm nitrate.
Nitrite is extremely reactive, and the heat used in thermal processing (smoking and cooking) increases the reactivity. Because of this, the amount of nitrite detectable in the finished product* is allegedly expected to be a fraction of what it was after the curing stage.
In other words, the level of nitrite should be much lower at the time of consumption.

* This is an important point that's emphasized by the regulators.

 

[wade]

 
Wade,

My father often cautioned me never to ask another man what he paid for something, it was none of my business.

Please ignore if the question is out of line, but what does the testing cost per sample?

Hi Ghenges

Although the costs are not a secret I have decided to responded to you in PM as I do not want other members to start sending me welfare checks.

 

[wade]

There's a lot that I could point out here, but especially, the residual nitrite and nitrate permitted in the finished product* (after all processing) is 200 ppm nitrite and 500 ppm nitrate.
Nitrite is extremely reactive, and the heat used in thermal processing (smoking and cooking) increases the reactivity. Because of this, the amount of nitrite detectable in the finished product* is allegedly expected to be a fraction of what it was after the curing stage.
In other words, the level of nitrite should be much lower at the time of consumption.

* This is an important point that's emphasized by the regulators.

Hi Martin

I am sorry but I disagree with you there. Everything I read in the handbooks suggests that the "finished product" is referring to the end of manufacture and at the point of sale - not at the point of consumption. 

 

[diggingdogfarm]

There's a lot that I could point out here, but especially, the residual nitrite and nitrate permitted in the finished product* (after all processing) is 200 ppm nitrite and 500 ppm nitrate.

Nitrite is extremely reactive, and the heat used in thermal processing (smoking and cooking) increases the reactivity. Because of this, the amount of nitrite detectable in the finished product* is allegedly expected to be a fraction of what it was after the curing stage.

In other words, the level of nitrite should be much lower at the time of consumption.

* This is an important point that's emphasized by the regulators.

Hi Martin

I am sorry but I disagree with you there. Everything I read in the handbooks suggests that the "finished product" is referring to the end of manufacture and at the point of sale - not at the point of consumption. 

Many of those finished products are ready-to-eat!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The following confirms that the limits apply to products that are ready for consumption.....

Code of Federal Regulations
Title 21, Volume 3
Revised as of April 1, 2014

TITLE 21--FOOD AND DRUGS
CHAPTER I--FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES
SUBCHAPTER B--FOOD FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION (CONTINUED)

Sec. 172.170 Sodium nitrate.

The food additive sodium nitrate may be safely used in or on specified foods in accordance with the following prescribed conditions:

(a) It is used or intended for use as follows:

(1) As a preservative and color fixative, with or without sodium nitrite, in smoked, cured sablefish, smoked, cured salmon, and smoked, cured shad, so that the level of sodium nitrate does not exceed 500 parts per million and the level of sodium nitrite does not exceed 200 parts per million in the [COLOR=#red]finished product.[/COLOR]

(2) As a preservative and color fixative, with or without sodium nitrite, in meat-curing preparations for the home curing of meat and meat products (including poultry and wild game), with directions for use which limit the amount of sodium nitrate to not more than 500 parts per million in the finished meat product and the amount of sodium nitrite to not more than 200 parts per million in the finished meat product.

(b) To assure safe use of the additive, in addition to the other information required by the Act:

(1) The label of the additive or of a mixture containing the additive shall bear:

(i) The name of the additive.

(ii) A statement of the concentration of the additive in any mixture.

(2) If in a retail package intended for household use, the label and labeling of the additive, or of a mixture containing the additive, shall bear adequate directions for use to provide a final food product that complies with the limitations prescribed in paragraph (a) of this section.

(3) If in a retail package intended for household use, the label of the additive or of a mixture containing the additive, shall bear the statement "Keep out of the reach of children".

Sec. 172.175 Sodium nitrite.

The food additive sodium nitrite may be safely used in or on specified foods in accordance with the following prescribed conditions:

(a) It is used or intended for use as follows:

(1) As a color fixative in smoked cured tunafish products so that the level of sodium nitrite does not exceed 10 parts per million (0.001 percent) in the [COLOR=#red]finished product[/COLOR].

(2) As a preservative and color fixative, with or without sodium nitrate, in smoked, cured sablefish, smoked, cured salmon, and smoked, cured shad so that the level of sodium nitrite does not exceed 200 parts per million and the level of sodium nitrate does not exceed 500 parts per million in the [COLOR=#red]finished product.[/COLOR]

(3) As a preservative and color fixative, with sodium nitrate, in meat-curing preparations for the home curing of meat and meat products (including poultry and wild game), with directions for use which limit the amount of sodium nitrite to not more than 200 parts per million in the finished meat product, and the amount of sodium nitrate to not more than 500 parts per million in the finished meat product.

(b) To assure safe use of the additive, in addition to the other information required by the Act:

(1) The label of the additive or of a mixture containing the additive shall bear:

(i) The name of the additive.

(ii) A statement of the concentration of the additive in any mixture.

(2) If in a retail package intended for household use, the label and labeling of the additive, or of a mixture containing the additive, shall bear adequate directions for use to provide a final food product which complies with the limitations prescribed in paragraph (a) of this section.

(3) If in a retail package intended for household use, the label of the additive, or of a mixture containing the additive, shall bear the statement "Keep out of the reach of children".

And from the handbook....
"Although nitrite and nitrate are calculated on an ingoing basis and the calculations are based on
the green weight of the meat/poultry, the use of nitrites, nitrates, or a combination must not result
in more than 200 ppm of nitrite, calculated as sodium nitrite, in the [COLOR=#red]finished product.[/COLOR]"

"The [COLOR=#red]finished product[/COLOR] (after processing) could be a cooked, [COLOR=#red]ready-to-eat[/COLOR] turkey breast , etc."

More...
https://www.google.com/search?q=res...ed&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1&gws_rd=ssl

 

[wade]

Thanks for posting that Martin and I see you have underlined certain words. Remember that we are discussing bacon in this thread. 

Your extracts refer to the "finished" product a lot however when I read it I cannot see where it defines the "finished product" as being at the point of consumption. It does say that the finished product after processing COULD be a cooked ready to eat turkey breast - but that would still be at the point of sale. Most bacon is sold uncooked (at least here in the UK). 

You have also highlighted the words "home curing" however this only appears to be referring to the supply of meat-curing preparations for people to use in home curing (e.g. Cure #1 or #2 etc) and it also does not define what is meant by "finished meat product". I would not necessarily interpret what it says as being after it has been cooked and is on the plate.

 

[diggingdogfarm]

Thanks for posting that Martin and I see you have underlined certain words. Remember that we are discussing bacon in this thread. 

Your extracts refer to the "finished" product a lot however when I read it I cannot see where it defines the "finished product" as being at the point of consumption. It does say that the finished product after processing COULD be a cooked ready to eat turkey breast - but that would still be at the point of sale. Most bacon is sold uncooked (at least here in the UK). 

You have also highlighted the words "home curing" however this only appears to be referring to the supply of meat-curing preparations for people to use in home curing (e.g. Cure #1 or #2 etc) and it also does not define what is meant by "finished meat product". I would not necessarily interpret what it says as being after it has been cooked and is on the plate.

I am sorry but I disagree with you there.

"Finished product" is emphasized, by FSIS, in the handbook, Why? Because it's critically important!!!!!
Here's a screen capture from page 32....

O4TuRFU.png

• diggingdogfarm
• Mar 14, 2015

I communicated with the FSIS a long time ago about the finished product definition and such (for confirmation.)

 

[diggingdogfarm]

Remember that we are discussing bacon in this thread.

Then why are the loins included?
This isn't the UK, USDA bacon regulations apply to belly bacon.
The calculation and analysis should also have been appropriately applied (rather than backwards and incorrectly... further confusing folks.)
Why do you keep referring to the original thread which wasn't about bacon?
What's the salt level of the pieces of meat..are they even consumable???

Listen, as I said, there's a LOT that could be discussed, but I need to step back, I have some serious health issues and I can't spend time arguing.
I wish this all would have lead to a constructive and FACTUAL discussion rather than an attempt to disprove and discredit......I think that we all would have learned a LOT more!!!!!

Good luck to all!!!

 

[wade]

 
A new thread needs to be initiated with definition of the goals of the continuing saga.

Yes I agree if people want to discuss that further. I don't think that I will be initiating it though.

 

[atomicsmoke]

Wade,

Despite the attempts made here to diminish the value of your experiment rest assured you made your point.
As you can see from other posts many members understood what you've done and thanked you for that. They can read thru clutter and will take home the message they were looking for.
Thank you again.

 

[daveomak]

Seems you have not told us much about yourself...... Where you live.... What you accomplishments are in the curing and smoking pastime....
Stop into roll call and fill in the details, please....

 

[wade]

Hi Ghenges

I hope someone else on here understands what you are going on about. I must confess that I lost track of any point you were trying to make quite some time ago. You obviously have very strong views on this, which you are perfectly entitled to have, however forcefully stating an opinion does not necessarily make it any more correct than any other persons opinion on here. 

I am still somewhat surprised that in the 12 months that you have been registered here almost 80% of all your posts have only been in these threads. 

 . I am sure you have your reasons and no, you don't have to explain them.

What may help us further understand who you are and your background, maybe you could stop by Roll Call and put up a quick introduction of who you are, your interests and any smoking/curing experiences you have.

I think this thread has now gone as far as it can go, and so with the results posted I will now leave it for others to continue the discussion if they wish.

Cheers 

Wade 

 

[daveomak]

Normally the mod team doesn't allow the "bad mouthing" of other members.... ghenges must be someone special to have been allowed to continue his member bashing.... My interpretation is, he has practiced this type of behavior previously on a different forum, until he was banned from there.... that would be a reasonable expectation of this forum...

 

[bladebuilder]

Amen

 

[mike w]

Wade, thanks for doing this. I finally got to read through all three threads.

 

[smokin monkey]

ghenges, put up or shut up.

Who are you, where do you come from and what are your credentials?

Smokin Monkey

 

[bmaddox]

Wow my head is officially spinning. That was a lot of information to digest. I guess I need to do some more reading on curing meats. Thanks Wade for taking it upon yourself to run some tests. I'm sure there are numerous arguments for and against any curing style.