Hot dogs

[SmokinEdge]

What's the reasoning on keeping meat and fat separate? It's really only doable if you have very lean meat and separate fat to start with. That's ideal but not always realistic for home cooks.

I agree with Inda’s post above^^^^^^^^

I will add this:
Keeping fat and meat separate is most important when,
1) You are doing an emulsification step
2) When fat content goes above 20% or if you are adding things like chicken skins or pork skin.

When you emulsify you always have to be careful of whipping air into the batter which will give you sponge dogs texture wise. This problem is compounded when higher fat content is used like 70/30 or more. The fat can break the emulsion but can also stop the binding from protein extraction. These are all texture problems that really are not an issue if you are just doing a 1,2 or 3 pass through the grinder then stuffing. However if you are doing straight grind with no emulsion step but are running fat higher than 20%, I suggest you always separate the fat and lean to grind separately, protein extract the lean while mixing spices then fold in the fat.

 

[Dave in AZ]

I agree with Inda’s post above^^^^^^^^

I will add this:
Keeping fat and meat separate is most important when,
1) You are doing an emulsification step
2) When fat content goes above 20% or if you are adding things like chicken skins or pork skin.

When you emulsify you always have to be careful of whipping air into the batter which will give you sponge dogs texture wise. This problem is compounded when higher fat content is used like 70/30 or more. The fat can break the emulsion but can also stop the binding from protein extraction. These are all texture problems that really are not an issue if you are just doing a 1,2 or 3 pass through the grinder then stuffing. However if you are doing straight grind with no emulsion step but are running fat higher than 20%, I suggest you always separate the fat and lean to grind separately, protein extract the lean while mixing spices then fold in the fat.

SmokinEdge and indaswamp have it well said here. I do the same, grind fat and whatever fatty meat I can cut off, separately. I usually do a 3mm or 4.5mm fat grind, pretty much frozen. This lets me mix the meat hard for strong protein extraction, without smearing the fat, then I add fat in to blend at end. For hot dogs I still mix it well to get it pretty emulsified, but only 2 min or so in a Kitchenaid.

 

[Dave in AZ]

IMO the flavor profile for most hotdogs (like ballpark) are based off bologna recipe's where coriander is present. White pepper is just a matter of preference for me. White pepper tends to throw off a little more heat than black pepper but IMO black pepper is more flavorful. When trying the two different peppers in recipes I always tend to go back to the black pepper.
Sabretts, dietz and watson, and hebrew national IMO are your examples of the use of chili powders along with the staple garlic and onion powder. Chili powders have very little or no heat in a hot dog recipe and give off great flavors.
You can try different chili powders for different NY style hot dog profiles.
Hebrew national may have a touch of coriander but it changes its profile by using beef instead of pork.
I've learned that its harder to make a tasteful beef hot dog than a tasteful pork hot dog so I don't use beef much anymore in hot dogs. Try the same recipe using only beef and beef fat and then one with pork and pork fat and taste the difference. I bet the pork will come out on top. It does with the store bought hotdogs. Ballpark pork and chicken hotdog out flavors the all beef.

Fantastic reply, thanks so much. I also end up starting with white pepper, then converting to black pepper later lol. To me, the white pepper is a distinctly different flavor. In Taylor Pork Roll, it is the defining flavor almost, black pepper doesn't do it. The all beef vs some or all pork was interesting too. You just can't beat getting taste results from an experienced maker who does their own spices and thinks about them!

 

[SmokinEdge]

For me the mix of white and black pepper is where it’s at. But the BP must be fresh ground the white I buy powdered.

 

[rayjay]

to keep the fat from smearing and to develop protein extraction. You need the proteins to wrap around the small fat and water particles for a good emulsion...or it can break.

I'm trying to figure a way to do it with separate meat and fat using a Champion juicer. Would I get emulsified too much if I salt the ground meat and leave overnight and then put through the juicer. Then mix that with the fat and spices and put that through the juicer again?

 

[SmokinEdge]

I'm trying to figure a way to do it with separate meat and fat using a Champion juicer. Would I get emulsified too much if I salt the ground meat and leave overnight and then put through the juicer. Then mix that with the fat and spices and put that through the juicer again?

Depending on your fat to meat ratio.
If I’m doing a 80/20 I grind through 1/8” plate all together, mix spices and cure, chill then run through the Champion, stuff and rest overnight then smoke and finish IT in a water poach.

However, if I’m running 70/30 or higher fat content, I grind the meat and fat separately through the 1/8” plate, I mix my seasoning with the meat only then chill and run through the juicer, then run the chilled fat through the juicer. Then I mix the two together and stuff. You can also not run the fat through the juicer and mix with the meat for more visual fat particles like Mortadella has.

 

[rayjay]

Thank you,
I've not had much luck grind and emulsifying together as it separates the water when I poach at 165F to internal temp of 155F. I don't have that problem if I grind (3mm) the meat separate, salt and sit the meat overnight and emulsify it followed by adding the fat (4.5mm) and spices and continuing the emulsifying until done.
I DO use 70/30 mix. I use pork side halves and cut out the fat to put with added fat the butcher gives me for free to get to the 30% (sides vary somewhat one to another)
I've gone through some evolution on emulsifying. I started with food processor but then used the grinder making semi frozen LOGS and stuffing them down the chute and the extra work with the partially frozen produces the fine emulsion.
I've also put a small stuffing tube on to restrict the output of the grinder which again emulsifies it. However, I wrap the grinder housing and chute with pliable freeze packs to keep the temp low with extra packs to replace as needed depending on how much I do. (freeze packs leftover from knee operation)
I've also taken the grinder housing and capped the openings and inserting into a small container of water and let it freeze. Bit of water run on the box to extract the whole thing. Only problem was it really kept it cool but made a mess with the melting if I was doing a big batch and had to place the grinder on a cookie sheet.
When I saw videos of the Champion emulsifying, I didn't stop to think about how I would manage it in separate meat/fat grinds and all the videos only show everything done all together and I find it hard to believe that I can get a proper emulsion when not doing the separate extraction with the meat only.
Generally, I don't add the spices with the meat, just the cure #1 and the salt, figuring the spices may inhibit the extraction process. I mix the spices with the fat or sometimes using another step to mix in after the meat and fat are emulsified together, depending on what method I'm using at the time. I use a stand mixer to mix.
Another thing I do different is I no longer use casings of any kind. I "extrude" 12" lengths onto oiled parchment and cut in half when placed on the Lem 15x15" dehydrator trays.
I dehydrate sufficient to "skin" the outer case before poaching. They don't stay perfectly round but the looks I don't care about, it's taste and texture that counts.
Normal sized wieners oval slightly but jumbos a bit more.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Thank you,
I've not had much luck grind and emulsifying together as it separates the water when I poach at 165F to internal temp of 155F. I don't have that problem if I grind (3mm) the meat separate, salt and sit the meat overnight and emulsify it followed by adding the fat (4.5mm) and spices and continuing the emulsifying until done.
I DO use 70/30 mix. I use pork side halves and cut out the fat to put with added fat the butcher gives me for free to get to the 30% (sides vary somewhat one to another)
I've gone through some evolution on emulsifying. I started with food processor but then used the grinder making semi frozen LOGS and stuffing them down the chute and the extra work with the partially frozen produces the fine emulsion.
I've also put a small stuffing tube on to restrict the output of the grinder which again emulsifies it. However, I wrap the grinder housing and chute with pliable freeze packs to keep the temp low with extra packs to replace as needed depending on how much I do. (freeze packs leftover from knee operation)
I've also taken the grinder housing and capped the openings and inserting into a small container of water and let it freeze. Bit of water run on the box to extract the whole thing. Only problem was it really kept it cool but made a mess with the melting if I was doing a big batch and had to place the grinder on a cookie sheet.
When I saw videos of the Champion emulsifying, I didn't stop to think about how I would manage it in separate meat/fat grinds and all the videos only show everything done all together and I find it hard to believe that I can get a proper emulsion when not doing the separate extraction with the meat only.
Generally, I don't add the spices with the meat, just the cure #1 and the salt, figuring the spices may inhibit the extraction process. I mix the spices with the fat or sometimes using another step to mix in after the meat and fat are emulsified together, depending on what method I'm using at the time. I use a stand mixer to mix.
Another thing I do different is I no longer use casings of any kind. I "extrude" 12" lengths onto oiled parchment and cut in half when placed on the Lem 15x15" dehydrator trays.
I dehydrate sufficient to "skin" the outer case before poaching. They don't stay perfectly round but the looks I don't care about, it's taste and texture that counts.
Normal sized wieners oval slightly but jumbos a bit more.

Interesting.

Run the meat with seasoning mixed through the Champion, then run the fat through separate then mix the two together in your stand mixer with ice water. The cold is absolutely key.

As far as the trouble to ice pack or freeze the grinder head,,,, I gave that up years ago, it’s to much work and doesn’t solve anything other than make you feel like you are doing it right.

If you will chill the meat to around 32* before processing that’s all the cold you need, but do this at each step and keep the meat cold all the way through. As far as heat generation, most of that is generated by the auger itself. You need to lube the back end of the auger shaft where it’s driven from, specifically the contact points of the nylon bushing at the back of the grinder. Lube the smooth part of the shaft and the thrust washer with food grade lube or I just use plain crisco type shortening, no oils. This will stop heat generation and the grinder head will stay the same temperature as the meat going through it. No ice packers required, which don’t and cannot cool the auger itself if warm to hot.

 

[rayjay]

Interesting.

Run the meat with seasoning mixed through the Champion, then run the fat through separate then mix the two together in your stand mixer with ice water. The cold is absolutely key.

As far as the trouble to ice pack or freeze the grinder head,,,, I gave that up years ago, it’s to much work and doesn’t solve anything other than make you feel like you are doing it right.

If you will chill the meat to around 32* before processing that’s all the cold you need, but do this at each step and keep the meat cold all the way through. As far as heat generation, most of that is generated by the auger itself. You need to lube the back end of the auger shaft where it’s driven from, specifically the contact points of the nylon bushing at the back of the grinder. Lube the smooth part of the shaft and the thrust washer with food grade lube or I just use plain crisco type shortening, no oils. This will stop heat generation and the grinder head will stay the same temperature as the meat going through it. No ice packers required, which don’t and cannot cool the auger itself if warm to hot.

Thank you for your reply again, especially so soon after I posted.
Actually, I've had positive outcomes myself using those gel freeze packs held on with velcro tape, quick and easy. In my testing done without and with, I can go a LOT longer before the meat temperature exiting gets above 40°.
While the auger has friction heat there is also friction heat between auger and meat and meat and housing as well.
Any heat from auger is tempered by the cool transferred quickly through the aluminum housing to the meat, negating some of that friction heat whatever is causing it.
I can actually do almost twice as much emulsifying before having to stop for elevating meat temperature.
I didn't have the same luck with the gel packs on the food processor, probably because outer case was plastic and the distance for cold to travel is many inches more because of the diameter of the bowl.
Fortunately one of my freezers is an 18 cu ft one and I have NO problem getting my meat down BELOW water freezing temperature where the meat is still not fully frozen.
All this is a moot point however as if I use the Champion I can't do external cooling but will test the output to be sure it doesn't get higher than about 40°. I'll still start with meat temps cold but not frozen in any way due to the damage that partially frozen may cause to the auger pins if I do get below 32°.
Anyway, I WILL add the seasonings along with the salt as you suggest and mix the fat in after running through the Champion but after mixing I'll have to run it through the Champion again as even if I use my 3mm grind for the fat it will still be too large for me. I don't want a mortadella effect even in the slightest.
The stand mixer is actually a big heat pain and I have to stop frequently to cool the mix.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Thank you for your reply again, especially so soon after I posted.
Actually, I've had positive outcomes myself using those gel freeze packs held on with velcro tape, quick and easy. In my testing done without and with, I can go a LOT longer before the meat temperature exiting gets above 40°.
While the auger has friction heat there is also friction heat between auger and meat and meat and housing as well.
Any heat from auger is tempered by the cool transferred quickly through the aluminum housing to the meat, negating some of that friction heat whatever is causing it.
I can actually do almost twice as much emulsifying before having to stop for elevating meat temperature.
I didn't have the same luck with the gel packs on the food processor, probably because outer case was plastic and the distance for cold to travel is many inches more because of the diameter of the bowl.
Fortunately one of my freezers is an 18 cu ft one and I have NO problem getting my meat down BELOW water freezing temperature where the meat is still not fully frozen.
All this is a moot point however as if I use the Champion I can't do external cooling but will test the output to be sure it doesn't get higher than about 40°. I'll still start with meat temps cold but not frozen in any way due to the damage that partially frozen may cause to the auger pins if I do get below 32°.
Anyway, I WILL add the seasonings along with the salt as you suggest and mix the fat in after running through the Champion but after mixing I'll have to run it through the Champion again as even if I use my 3mm grind for the fat it will still be too large for me. I don't want a mortadella effect even in the slightest.
The stand mixer is actually a big heat pain and I have to stop frequently to cool the mix.

Sounds like you have it figured out.

 

[rayjay]

Sounds like you have it figured out.

Thank you but it's too early to say that. All I can say is that I've figured out my next step to try but that doesn't mean it will work.
My whole life has revolved around trying things until I find what works for any of my endeavours.
At least your suggestion to mix the spices in with the salt at the start makes it a bit less complicated as I would hate to have to use the stand mixer to mix again.

 

[Dirty Steve]

I’m eating a 7-11 hot dog right now, its awesome.

 

[slavikborisov]

hotdogs for me have been the biggest challenge by far... when i thought i had everything right i ended up getting a bunch of water/oils in the casing after poaching to 155F its frustrating as hell but im not giving up till i get these stupid hotdogs the way i like them LOL!

 

[rayjay]

hotdogs for me have been the biggest challenge by far...

It was like that for me until I split the emulsifying into meat first and then fat after. I discovered early on that like many long term makers say, the temp is critical so I stop when the output goes above 40° to get the temps back down again. I'm told I don't have to be that severe with the 40° mark but it just got that it wasn't worth risking letting it go higher and spoiling the batch.

 

[chopsaw]

I split the emulsifying into meat first and then fat after.

the temp is critical so I stop when the output goes above 40°

The reason for adding the fat last is so it doesn't smear when emulsifying . It doesn't like the water .

Using a food processor ,
The lean meat , water , salt and cure gets processed to 43 degrees . ( and any additives you're using )
Add the fat and seasoning then process to 57 / 58 degrees , making sure not to exceed 60 degrees .
If the fat breaks in processing you'll lose it when cooking .

I don't do it separate , so I don't get a perfect mix . Since I've started taking it to 58 degrees the mouth feel / texture is greatly improved .
This is Mortadella , but same idea .

 

[indaswamp]

Add the fat and seasoning then process to 57 / 58 degrees , making sure not to exceed 60 degrees .
If the fat breaks in processing you'll lose it when cooking .

Interesting....I thought the cut off temp. was 55*F and any higher than this and you risk breaking the emulsion...

 

[slavikborisov]

The reason for adding the fat last is so it doesn't smear when emulsifying . It doesn't like the water .

Using a food processor ,
The lean meat , water , salt and cure gets processed to 43 degrees . ( and any additives you're using )
Add the fat and seasoning then process to 57 / 58 degrees , making sure not to exceed 60 degrees .
If the fat breaks in processing you'll lose it when cooking .

I don't do it separate , so I don't get a perfect mix . Since I've started taking it to 58 degrees the mouth feel / texture is greatly improved .
This is Mortadella , but same idea .
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yeah i thought i read 53 F somewhere but close enough either way i dont think anywhere in the process of my last batch anything went above 42F so its a mystery to me

 

[rayjay]

SmokinEdge
Just rereading your posts again because at 81 with Mild Cog. Imp. I usually miss a lot and can pick up on rereading multiple times.
You recommended

Run the meat with seasoning mixed through the Champion, then run the fat through separate then mix the two together in your stand mixer with ice water

I think I may have confused myself, thinking the mix was after emulsifying the meat and then emulsifying after when you actually had stated to emulsify both separately and mix afterwards.
Now, I'm wondering about my decision and if there is any pro or con to doing it this way or my intended way to do the second emulsion AFTER mixing the fat in.
I guess I'm concerned that mixing both after both separately emulsified might not keep separation from happening but that may be just because I lack the knowledge about how the fat and meat work together in emulsions. I know that when I do something wrong, I for sure get water separation in poaching.

 

[chopsaw]

thought the cut off temp. was 55*F and any higher than this and you risk breaking the emulsion...

Marianski and Poli both list 57 . I read 58 somewhere as the " point to hit " over 60 keeps the fat from binding . The first time I took it to 58 was the Mortadella . Seemed to make a difference .

yeah i thought i read 53 F somewhere but close enough either way i dont think anywhere in the process of my last batch anything went above 42F so its a mystery to me

My normal process ended up around 43 degrees , so that sounds about right . Maybe it was excess water ?

I've had the water / fat filled casings twice . Once with gelbwurst and once with Lyoner . I think both times I poached them to long .

 

[slavikborisov]

Marianski and Poli both list 57 . I read 58 somewhere as the " point to hit " over 60 keeps the fat from binding . The first time I took it to 58 was the Mortadella . Seemed to make a difference .


My normal process ended up around 43 degrees , so that sounds about right . Maybe it was excess water ?

I've had the water / fat filled casings twice . Once with gelbwurst and once with Lyoner . I think both times I poached them to long .

hmmm i never thought of that!! good thing to remember thanks!