Effects of fruit juice on Cure #1?

[cptnding]

Does anyone know if adding fruit juice in a dry cure will have an effect on curing? Fruit juice is acidic. Salt and sugar are both neutral but sodium nitrite is slightly basic. Does anyone know if something acidic will reduce the ability of Cure #1 to properly cure the meat?
I know anything acidic will break down the meat fibers over time but I'm curious if the properties of sodium nitrite are comprimised.

 

[Brokenhandle]

Can't help with that, but curious as to why you want to add fruit juice?

Ryan

 

[SmokinEdge]

Does anyone know if adding fruit juice in a dry cure will have an effect on curing? Fruit juice is acidic. Salt and sugar are both neutral but sodium nitrite is slightly basic. Does anyone know if something acidic will reduce the ability of Cure #1 to properly cure the meat?
I know anything acidic will break down the meat fibers over time but I'm curious if the properties of sodium nitrite are comprimised.

Fruit juice will act as citric acid. This is a curing accelerator. This can be a none issue, depending on how and how much you apply.

 

[indaswamp]

Not advisable. Yes, the citric acid will accelerate the production of NO gas, and if this occurs inside a sausage, no problem as mentioned it will act as a cure accelerator. But in the case of a dry brine, this is on the outside of the meat BEFORE the cure is inside the meat. Little of the NO gas created will react with the meat. Most will vent off and be lost.

Not recommended to wet or dry brine whole muscles with citric acid present. At least this is my understanding...

 

[SmokinEdge]

Not advisable. Yes, the citric acid will accelerate the production of NO gas, and if this occurs inside a sausage, no problem as mentioned it will act as a cure accelerator. But in the case of a dry brine, this is on the outside of the meat BEFORE the cure is inside the meat. Little of the NO gas created will react with the meat. Most will vent off and be lost.

Not recommended to wet or dry brine whole muscles with citric acid present. At least this is my understanding...

Waltons has a dry cure for bacon with S. Erythorbate In it, I’ve seen others too. I use it in brine injection but have not used it in cover pickle.

https://waltons.com/dry-rub-bacon-cure/

 

[indaswamp]

Waltons has a dry cure for bacon with S. Erythorbate In it, I’ve seen others too. I use it in brine injection but have not used it in cover pickle.

https://waltons.com/dry-rub-bacon-cure/

S. Erythorbate is a much much slower cure accelerator at room temperature than citric acid. Citric acid reacts almost instantly with sodium nitrite. you will see bubbles form in the liquid...

 

[Fueling Around]

Fruit juices vary greatly in citric acid content with lemon the highest and grapefruit the lowest.

Long ago, I used a recipe from a well-known book on curing meat (charcuterie ...) for wet brined pork loin that had lemon juice in the mix. I quit using that recipe (and the whole book) after finding out that citric acid will mess with the nitrites.

Erythrobate is used more as a nitrite depletion agent than as an accelerator.
I'll see if I can find where I read that tidbit.

 

[zwiller]

Good info so far. From a practical standpoint I used 1% apple juice in a cured loin and no issues. I also did some tests before I did that. I sprinkled cure into a small cup of vinegar. I was told I would die... Not so. VERY mild reaction. What ever you do do NOT mix cure #1 with soap, it creates nitroglycerin LOL

Adding juice to a dry cure seems counterintuitive to me.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Ok, so this prompted me to do an experiment. I was going to town for groceries this morning so I picked up a few things not on hand. Namely orange juice and vitamin C tablets.
Marianski says you can use crushed up vitamin C tablets but because of the ascorbic acid this should be mixed in at the very last, (I think this may be where some confuse this with S. Erythorbate.) Now he doesn’t say what mg tablets but does say to apply at .1% to meat weight.

So I mixed up three concoctions. One with 100% pure orange juice, one with crushed vitamin C tablets that contained 500mg of C I used 1g of the powder mixed with about 50ml water. Then one with 50ml water and 1g of sodium erythorbate. To each of these I applied 2.5g of cure #1, the correct amount for 1Kg of meat. Here is what happened.

The OJ fizzed unimpressively, but still you could clearly see the nitrite was burning off.

The C tablets mixture foamed aggressively and almost instantly. This was a very definite reaction.

The S. Erythorbate mixture I’m still waiting to see a reaction. Zip, zero, nada.

After seeing these reactions I can say do not mix either fruit juice neither vitamin C with liquid containing nitrites.

I may test wine next.

Edit to add:

I Did the same test with some nice Chianti red wine that I use in some sausages. The results of nitrite reaction were very close to that of OJ although it took just a few seconds longer to react.

 

[zwiller]

Try some liquid smoke if you can. Been wanting to play with that. Apparently the stuff if quite acidic. Have not used Vit C/acsorbic acid in cured fare but I think it gave a nice added freshness bump in my fresh stuff. Bought citric acid play with too.

 

[indaswamp]

SE, I became aware of the reactions of nitrites with various acids when I added cure #1 to Worcestershire sauce...instant fizz. So I did some research and found out the same results you did.

Side not- this is why if you drink Orange Juice, or take a vit, C tablet after eating bacon, you won't have to worry about nitrosamines......

 

[SmokinEdge]

Side not- this is why if you drink Orange Juice, or take a vit, C tablet after eating bacon, you won't have to worry about nitrosamines......

My understanding is that the derivatives of vitamin C stop the formation of nitrosamines, which are formed in the high temperatures of the frying pan if nitrite is present. This is why the FSIS requires ascorbic acid or S. Erythorbate to be in the injection cure of commercially produced bacon. This greatly reduces the nitrite present in the finished bacon product, where then fried in a pan or microwave will not produce nitrosamines because of nitrite reduction.

If nitrites were present in the bacon when fried, nitrosamines could be produced. Vitamin C will NOT stop or change those nitrosamines once formed, so the OJ after eating bacon does nothing to nitrosamines already produced, but rather vitamin C reduces or eliminates residual nitrite in the curing process, thus stopping the formation. This is my understanding of how this works.

 

[indaswamp]

My understanding is that nitrousamine is a reversible in the presence of ascorbic acid or it's derivatives. With the most reactive having the best effect....that being citric acid.

 

[SmokinEdge]

My understanding is that nitrousamine is a reversible in the presence of ascorbic acid or it's derivatives. With the most reactive having the best effect....that being citric acid.

Interesting, I look into that.

 

[hondabbq]

I cured some pork loin to make back bacon and used some OJ in Pops brine. I also made some with instant coffee added to Pops. Both came out excellent.
That being said I didnt kill anyone or get sick, maybe I didnt know what I didnt know.

 

[Stalin's Dentist]

Ok, so this prompted me to do an experiment. I was going to town for groceries this morning so I picked up a few things not on hand. Namely orange juice and vitamin C tablets.
Marianski says you can use crushed up vitamin C tablets but because of the ascorbic acid this should be mixed in at the very last, (I think this may be where some confuse this with S. Erythorbate.) Now he doesn’t say what mg tablets but does say to apply at .1% to meat weight.

So I mixed up three concoctions. One with 100% pure orange juice, one with crushed vitamin C tablets that contained 500mg of C I used 1g of the powder mixed with about 50ml water. Then one with 50ml water and 1g of sodium erythorbate. To each of these I applied 2.5g of cure #1, the correct amount for 1Kg of meat. Here is what happened.

The OJ fizzed unimpressively, but still you could clearly see the nitrite was burning off.

The C tablets mixture foamed aggressively and almost instantly. This was a very definite reaction.

The S. Erythorbate mixture I’m still waiting to see a reaction. Zip, zero, nada.

After seeing these reactions I can say do not mix either fruit juice neither vitamin C with liquid containing nitrites.

I may test wine next.

Edit to add:

I Did the same test with some nice Chianti red wine that I use in some sausages. The results of nitrite reaction were very close to that of OJ although it took just a few seconds longer to react.

I was very interested in some way to incorporate SE into a dry cure bacon recipe when I stumbled onto this site and this conversation this evening. I took a look at that mix from Walton's referenced above and noticed "Sodium Bicarbonate (1% buffering agent)" in the ingredients. I wonder if Walton's adds that to mitigate premature degradation of the Nitrite from mild acidity in the SE, or naturally occurring acidity in the meat or other ingredients? It's the first time I've seen "Baking Soda" in a cure recipe, but also the first I've seen SE in a commercial dry cure. Interesting conversation for sure. Thank You!

 

[SmokinEdge]

I was very interested in some way to incorporate SE into a dry cure bacon recipe when I stumbled onto this site and this conversation this evening. I took a look at that mix from Walton's referenced above and noticed "Sodium Bicarbonate (1% buffering agent)" in the ingredients. I wonder if Walton's adds that to mitigate premature degradation of the Nitrite from mild acidity in the SE, or naturally occurring acidity in the meat or other ingredients? It's the first time I've seen "Baking Soda" in a cure recipe, but also the first I've seen SE in a commercial dry cure. Interesting conversation for sure. Thank You!

Welcome aboard.

My guess is that the bicarbonate does two things.

1) buffering, this helps keep the PH high, which helps the process of nitrite conversion to nitric oxide.

2) Acts as a carrier for the Sodium Erythorbate (NaE) since so little, relatively, is used and the grain size so small, SB is very close to grain size so it will mix well with NaE. This gets to be a problem with cure mixes generally. The different grain or granules sizes tend to “classify “ away from larger or smaller granules, in other words they have a tendency to separate. This is one reason I use fine sea salt and not kosher salt for dry mixes.

Im going to start a small experiment today and rub down some country style ribs with my standard cure but add the sodium bicarbonate and NaE mixture. I’ve been meaning to do this and since the last 40# of bacon has finally left the fridge I’ll do it today since I have room before I start the hams.

 

[Stalin's Dentist]

Welcome aboard.

My guess is that the bicarbonate does two things.

1) buffering, this helps keep the PH high, which helps the process of nitrite conversion to nitric oxide.

2) Acts as a carrier for the Sodium Erythorbate (NaE) since so little, relatively, is used and the grain size so small, SB is very close to grain size so it will mix well with NaE. This gets to be a problem with cure mixes generally. The different grain or granules sizes tend to “classify “ away from larger or smaller granules, in other words they have a tendency to separate. This is one reason I use fine sea salt and not kosher salt for dry mixes.

Im going to start a small experiment today and rub down some country style ribs with my standard cure but add the sodium bicarbonate and NaE mixture. I’ve been meaning to do this and since the last 40# of bacon has finally left the fridge I’ll do it today since I have room before I start the hams.

Thank you! I am curious what you get for results and the ratios you use. One question I had, ... after seeing some folks post amounts of NaE used in smoke sausage mixes seemed to indicate that the amount of NaE is really small, compared to the amount of cure. However, the only other dry rub bacon recipe that I found with NaE calls for MORE NaE (like half again as much) than Cure#1. And, the Walton's mix specifies that if used as directed, their stuff will give you 200 PPM Nitrite and 547 PPM NaE. Does this sound about right for a dry rub on the outside of the meat (where a lot of the cure will get washed down the drain before smoking), vs mixing directly into the meat like in sausage? Thanks!

 

[Stalin's Dentist]

Here are the ingredients listed for the Walton's cure (looks like 2.725 : 1 NaE to Sodium Nitrite):

INGREDIENTS: Salt, Brown and Cane Sugar, Sodium Erythorbate (1.09%), Sodium Bicarbonate (1% buffering agent), Sodium Nitrite (0.40%).
USAGE:Use 5 lbs of cure to 100 lbs of fresh bellies. This imparts 200 PPM of nitrite, and 547 PPM of sodium erythorbate.

 

[SmokinEdge]

Here are the ingredients listed for the Walton's cure (looks like 2.725 : 1 NaE to Sodium Nitrite):

INGREDIENTS: Salt, Brown and Cane Sugar, Sodium Erythorbate (1.09%), Sodium Bicarbonate (1% buffering agent), Sodium Nitrite (0.40%).
USAGE:Use 5 lbs of cure to 100 lbs of fresh bellies. This imparts 200 PPM of nitrite, and 547 PPM of sodium erythorbate.

I ran the long math on there ratios and yes they come up to 550 ppm on NaE and 200ppm nitrite.

NaE should be applied at .5-.7 g/Kg or .05-.07% by meat weight.