Did I make my cure to strong?

[daveomak]

Bear, Jim.... Try to make heads or tails out of this excerpt from the FSIS.....

https://www.aamp.com/foodsafety/documents/Directive7620-3.pdf

One obstacle that inspection personnel encounter in ascertaining restricted ingredient compliance with the regulations, is that calculations for allowable ingoing amounts could be based on one of five different weights, all of which are referred to in various places in the MPI regulations. These different weights vary according to the type of ingredient, type of product, and purpose of the ingredient's use in the product. The five weights (or bases for restricted ingredient calculations) are:
! The "green weight" of the meat and/or poultry and/or meat and/or poultry byproduct (meat block) component of the product at formulation.
Example:
< The ingoing amount of nitrite and nitrate used in comminuted, pumped, injected, massaged, dry-cured, and immersion-cured products is based on the weight of the meat, poultry, meat byproduct, or poultry byproduct at the time of formulation and are controlled on an ingoing basis

 

[smokerjim]

i'm sure there are people who can make sense of that but I barely made it out of high school, so i'll just trust pop's and add a tablespoon of #1, some salt and sugar to a gallon a water add meat, inject if needed and smoke away. it hasn't killed me yet!

 

[bill ace 350]

i'm sure there are people who can make sense of that but I barely made it out of high school, so i'll just trust pop's and add a tablespoon of #1, some salt and sugar to a gallon a water add meat, inject if needed and smoke away. it hasn't killed me yet!

I have used Pop's recipe for years as well.

I recall reading something about how New York State had approved of the safety and effectiveness of Pop's father's recipe in his commercial operation.

I wish Pops would chime in.....

 

[smokerjim]

I have used Pop's recipe for years as well.

I recall reading something about how New York State had approved of the safety and effectiveness of Pop's father's recipe in his commercial operation.

I wish Pops would chime in.....

i'm not positive but I think he explains it all just click on his brine under his how too's

 

[BC Buck]

Ok not sure what happened to my roast. After Daveomak post my ratios would be off and needed to use one gallon of water I dumped out and made fresh batch. Roast was in strong solution for about 8 hours. New batch 1 gallon water,3/4 cup salt,1/2 cup brown sugar,1 tbs #1 cure, and other seasonings. First batch I did not inject but fresh batch I injected because roast was 4" thick. After 6 days rinsed for about 1 hour, rubbed with pastrami seasoning and smoked to IT of 145 deg. Looked great but tasted like salt shaker. Thought out side edge was to salty from first batch. So cut center out of meat and was just as salty and had to pitch roast. Back to the drawing board.

 

[JC in GB]

A buddy of mine did the same thing recently. These cartoons helped him understand why it may be a bad idea to use half the cure:


View attachment 448839
Slide 1: Meat in Brine (Meat is white, NaNO2 is pink)
Slide 2: NaNO2 begins to enter the meat (pink bleeds into white)
Slide 3: Meat cured. Equal levels of NaNO2 in the brine and in the meat (pink mixed evenly)



What happens if you only use half of the brine?

View attachment 448840

Slide 1: Meat in Brine
Slide 2: Remove half of the brine
Slide 3: NaNO2 begins to enter the meat (pink bleeds into white)
Slide 4: Equal levels of NaNO2 in the brine and in the meat, but it may not be enough for proper cure (pink mixed evenly – but color too pale)

If this is true then dry curing shouldn't work. ?????

JC

 

[PolishDeli]

Guys,
Dave's comments are correct and supported by the literature. Feel free to use pops brine, and never think twice about it. You’ll get good results. But curing meats is a complicated topic, and Dave was trying to help with details.

If you look at the equation for equilibrium curing, the weight of the meat is important.

Using that equation, Pops method makes a brine that is 300ppm NaNO2.
1lb meat cures to 265ppm NaNO2
5lb meat cure to 185ppm NaNO2
10lb meat cure to 135ppm NaNO2

However:
I trust Pops experience and observations that the weight of the meat does not impact the amount of curing. I also believe my own measurements that cure levels do not equilibrate. Therefore, the correct equation to use is this one:

But that means you are only getting around 30ppm NaNO2 cure levels in your meat if you are using Pops brine. That enough to get the job done, but definitely on the very low side.

...rubbed with pastrami seasoning and smoked to IT of 145 deg. Looked great but tasted like salt shaker.

My guess is that the pastrami seasoning is your culprit. Did you buy it premixed? Probably has lots of salt.

 

[JC in GB]

Guys,
Dave's comments are correct and supported by the literature. Feel free to use pops brine, and never think twice about it. You’ll get good results. But curing meats is a complicated topic, and Dave was trying to help with details.

If you look at the equation for equilibrium curing, the weight of the meat is important.

View attachment 448914

Using that equation, Pops method makes a brine that is 300ppm NaNO2.
1lb meat cures to 265ppm NaNO2
5lb meat cure to 185ppm NaNO2
10lb meat cure to 135ppm NaNO2

However:
I trust Pops experience and observations that the weight of the meat does not impact the amount of curing. I also believe my own measurements that cure levels do not equilibrate. Therefore, the correct equation to use is this one:

View attachment 448915

But that means you are only getting around 30ppm NaNO2 cure levels in your meat if you are using Pops brine. That enough to get the job done, but definitely on the very low side.



My guess is that the pastrami seasoning is your culprit. Did you buy it premixed? Probably has lots of salt.

Agreed...

You can't go wrong if you do everything by weight IMHO. I have never had a bad cure using weight for all ingredient inputs.

Toss the US system and go metric, it is so much easier on the brain....

JC

 

[PolishDeli]

If this is true then dry curing shouldn't work. ?????

In the cartoon, cure is being removed along with the water.
In dry cuing, there is no water there in the first place.
So, in terms of the cartoon: imagine that water is being removed by evaporation, instead of being removed by ladle.

 

[daveomak]

Buck, morning... Sorry you had to throw the roast out because of salt.....
I experienced the same thing years ago... I overcame that problem by weighing stuff....
The recipe to use is.... (weigh stuff in grams.. Pounds and Ounces is a witch to convert)
Weigh the meat.... Weigh the water at 1/2 the weight of the meat...
Total those 2 weights and add 1.75% salt (X 0.0175), 2% sugar (X0.020), and 0.25% cure#1 (X0.0025).. Dissolve those well in the water and inject all the brine the meat will hold and submerge the meat in the rest of the brine/cure and refer for a week or 2....
Your results will be consistent and no more throwing away meat.... And the numbers are in line with the FDA and FSIS....
As an example....
A 4# roast (X 454) hunk of meat weighs ~1800 grams... Water at ~900 grams = ~ 2700 grms...
2700 X 0.0175 = 47 grams salt
2700 X 0.02 = 54 grams sugar
2700 X 0.0025 = ~6.75 grams cure#1
Dissolve the above in the 900 grams of water..
If you injected 1/2 the brine/cure, that salt would only be ~1.3%, sugar ~1.5% and the cure#1 would be ~120 Ppm nitrite.... Continuing the soak in the remaining brine will elevate those numbers to ~2%, ~2% and 156 Ppm nitrite respectively....
The salt difference between 1.75% and 2% is due to the cure#1 having 0.25% salt...
All will be good....

Using this method, a 2-2.5 gallon zip bag will hold all the stuff... There will not be enough liquid to submerge the meat in a bucket... Turn the bag every couple days... Have the bag in a plastic tub in the event it breaks...

Dave

 

[daveomak]

The scale I use for weighing small amounts... $12 ...


Click on this link...

0-100 grams scale at Amazon


...

 

[JC in GB]

Buck, morning... Sorry you had to throw the roast out because of salt.....
I experienced the same thing years ago... I overcame that problem by weighing stuff....
The recipe to use is.... (weigh stuff in grams.. Pounds and Ounces is a witch to convert)
Weigh the meat.... Weigh the water at 1/2 the weight of the meat...
Total those 2 weights and add 1.75% salt (X 0.0175), 2% sugar (X0.020), and 0.25% cure#1 (X0.0025).. Dissolve those well in the water and inject all the brine the meat will hold and submerge the meat in the rest of the brine/cure and refer for a week or 2....
Your results will be consistent and no more throwing away meat.... And the numbers are in line with the FDA and FSIS....
As an example....
A 4# roast (X 454) hunk of meat weighs ~1800 grams... Water at ~900 grams ~ 2700 grms...
2700 X 0.0175 = 47 grams salt
2700 X 0.02 = 54 grams sugar
2700 X 0.0025 = ~6.75 grams cure#1
Dissolve the above in the 900 grams of water..
If you injected 1/2 the brine/cure, that salt would only be ~1.3%, sugar ~1.5% and the cure#1 would be ~120 Ppm nitrite.... Continuing the soak in the remaining brine will elevate those numbers to ~2%, ~2% and 156 Ppm nitrite respectively....
The salt difference between 1.75% and 2% is due to the cure#1 having 0.25% salt...
All will be good....

Using this method, a 2-2.5 gallon zip bag will hold all the stuff... There will not be enough liquid to submerge the meat in a bucket... Turn the bag every couple days... Have the bag in a plastic tub in the event it breaks...

Dave

This is the method I use for nearly all my curing. It is consistent and I never have to worry about my meat being too salty. You can tailor the salt and sugar percentages to your taste.

I find 1.75% salt is perfect

Thanks daveomak for helping me get the information that finally got me to understand the math behind it all.

"Only through mathematics shall we find truth." Dr. Who

JC

 

[Bearcarver]

Bear, Jim.... Try to make heads or tails out of this excerpt from the FSIS.....

https://www.aamp.com/foodsafety/documents/Directive7620-3.pdf

One obstacle that inspection personnel encounter in ascertaining restricted ingredient compliance with the regulations, is that calculations for allowable ingoing amounts could be based on one of five different weights, all of which are referred to in various places in the MPI regulations. These different weights vary according to the type of ingredient, type of product, and purpose of the ingredient's use in the product. The five weights (or bases for restricted ingredient calculations) are:
! The "green weight" of the meat and/or poultry and/or meat and/or poultry byproduct (meat block) component of the product at formulation.
Example:
< The ingoing amount of nitrite and nitrate used in comminuted, pumped, injected, massaged, dry-cured, and immersion-cured products is based on the weight of the meat, poultry, meat byproduct, or poultry byproduct at the time of formulation and are controlled on an ingoing basis

View attachment 448873

I don't worry about any of that type of Yammering calculation BS. It's not needed.

I know 2 things:
#1 When I Dry cure, I use TQ, and Weigh the pieces so I know how much TQ to use when curing. Then I measure the thicknesses of the pieces to tell me how long to keep them in cure.

#2. If I want to Brine cure with Cure #1 I will use Pops' Method, and mix the cure #1 and water according to his proven recipe. If I make sure all of the meat is submerged in his Brine, I don't care what the Meat weighs. I'll use my same method for length of time in cure.

It's all as simple as that.

Bear

 

[daveomak]

I don't worry about any of that type of Yammering calculation BS. It's not needed.

Bear

It's unfortunate you place such little regard for scientific formulations when curing meats... You have a great following of members that trust your leadership, in knowing how to cure meat safely and properly...


.....

 

[Bearcarver]

It's unfortunate you place such little regard for scientific formulations when curing meats... You have a great following of members that trust your leadership, in knowing how to cure meat safely and properly...


.....

It's unfortunate we aren't all geniuses & know everything, like yourself & have to use one of two proven methods that work every time, because the calculations aren't needed.

Bear

 

[gary s]

I didn't go back to the beginning and read every post, just picked up on the last several post.
So is Dave saying Pop's is wrong ? and you shouldn't use TQ ? I'm a TQ guy, when I first started I contacted Morton's and asked about their TQ, They sent me a recipe book and assured me that if I followed their directions I would be fine. That was about 10 years ago and I'm still alive and kicking.

Gary

 

[thirdeye]

For many years before I became a member on this forum I cruised numerous threads and realized that when it came to combined wisdom on sausage and curing.... this was the place. that said, it's appropriate to say a general... thanks to everyone for sharing what you know.

I'm notorious for having reference material, and for taking notes and although I'm not a science guy I enjoy understanding the rules and the various calculations behind behind things like canning, pickling, curing, sous vide etc. Especially when sharing my food with guests and friends.

For personal tastes I prefer dry curing (trout, steelhead, salmon, jerky, bacon, pastrami, Buckboard, etc.) and use both Tender Quick and Cure #1 for various applications. I have never ventured into the dry curing of un-cooked products like salami or Italian meats which call for using Cure #2, but I understand the technique.

When I got interested in a wet curing, I followed the old Morton's Handbook, and when I came upon Pop's Brine it seemed to make sense, and my notes have snips about his father proving the technique to state inspectors, and I bought in to the lower amounts of Cure #1 and longer cure times, as I have advocated the use of injectable LiteBrines (flavor brine) for many years. I too have had successful curing results when using Pop's Brine, and recommended it to others. But.... my notes reference 10 to 12 pounds of meat for the one gallon mixture, and there is mention of injecting when the thickness is 2" or greater. All that said, the next thing on my bucket list is a Daveomak ham, the recipe using the vegetable stock injection. I'm just waiting on Amesphos to come off back order.

Is there more than one way to skin a cat? Can we learn and improve by sharing information? I think so, I've witnessed it my entire life.

 

[chopsaw]

I was using TQ long before I joined here , and I was using it in the wrong amounts . The first thing I cured was a pork loin using Bear's directions , and learned the right way to use it .
In the spirit of learning , I've tried other ways as well . I have my choice of different ways to cure depending on the protein used .
Pop's is so simple , and no weighing needed , and it works . I love it on poultry , and no need to use anything else . It just flat out works , and simple to do for everyone . Great for a beginner .
Dave's phosphate injection for ham is insanely good . I use the calculator that another member provided , because I'm not Jimmy Neutron .
I've also used TQ as a pickle / wet brine . Works , but tends to be salty using their directions .
I've done hams , chickens and pork loins using all 3 of these methods , and have a favorite for each one . I'm all about safe , but safe and simple is better , way better .

next thing on my bucket list is a DaveOmak ham, the recipe using the vegetable stock injection.

You won't be sorry . It is the best ham I've eaten . I suggest doing the math , but if you need a link to the calculator I can find it for you .

 

[thirdeye]

I was using TQ long before I joined here , and I was using it in the wrong amounts . The first thing I cured was a pork loin using Bear's directions , and learned the right way to use it .
In the spirit of learning , I've tried other ways as well . I have my choice of different ways to cure depending on the protein used .
Pop's is so simple , and no weighing needed , and it works . I love it on poultry , and no need to use anything else . It just flat out works , and simple to do for everyone . Great for a beginner .
Dave's phosphate injection for ham is insanely good . I use the calculator that another member provided , because I'm not Jimmy Neutron .
I've also used TQ as a pickle / wet brine . Works , but tends to be salty using their directions .
I've done hams , chickens and pork loins using all 3 of these methods , and have a favorite for each one . I'm all about safe , but safe and simple is better , way better .


You won't be sorry . It is the best ham I've eaten . I suggest doing the math , but if you need a link to the calculator I can find it for you .

Like I said, I'm a sponge.... I've got that Excel file. I can't wait.

 

[Brokenhandle]

I feel the the most important thing is curing everything safely. When I was just lurking I learned from Bearcarver how to use tenderquick and from pops6927 on how to use his way that he got from his dad. Both ways are proven safe. Now I understand the mathematics are important but when I was just lurking here that confused the heck out of me. Even now that I'm not such a newbie, it can still confuse me...so think of what it does do for anyone that's new, unless they do or can understand the mathematics. We are all here to help them out, to learn and understand how to cure properly and safely.

I sure appreciate everything I have learned on this site from alot of people.

Ryan