cutting a turkey in two?

[smokerpadawan]

I am planning on smoking a turkey for Thanksgiving, I have had great success on a 13 lb bird but have read that a 20 lber is much too big. if I cut it in half would that fix the issue or just ruin the bird?

 

[mdboatbum]

Twenty pounds is too big to get it through the danger zone quickly enough AT LOW AND SLOW TEMPS, 225˚-240˚. However, if you can get your smoker to 300˚-325˚ it should be ok. As a bonus, the shin will be much better.

If you're married to low and slow, I'd definitely either spatchcock it, cut it on half or separate into individual pieces.

 

[smokerpadawan]

thanks for the info, if I go with the higher heat what are the changes? time/temp, do I need to change anything like covering with foil or anything like that?
 

 

[pops6927]

Cut it into Quarters if possible, do a Quarter on each shelf for 4 shelves if you have that much space, or if 3 shelves, ½ breast per shelf and both leg quarters on one.  Start off with breast ribs up, flip to ribs down for last half, same way with legs; skin down first, then skin up last.

 

[BGKYSmoker]

I have a 14 lb that im going to split and WSM it
 

 

[pineywoods]

You can either spatchcock it or split it in half all the way. Smoking at higher temps usually means less smoke flavor but a crispy skin. Personally I smoke all my poultry at temps around 300-325

 

[deltadude]

Twenty pounds is too big to get it through the danger zone quickly enough AT LOW AND SLOW TEMPS, 225˚-240˚. However, if you can get your smoker to 300˚-325˚ it should be ok. As a bonus, the shin will be much better.

If you're married to low and slow, I'd definitely either spatchcock it, cut it on half or separate into individual pieces.

There is a lot written on this forum that others have posted on the "danger zone" and getting whatever cut of meat through it in 4 hours.  Interesting that very few say that about a HUGE Pork BUTT, or how about a brisket.  Why haven't the millions who have dug a pit and buried a whole hog, get sick, it took 24hours + to cook?  You can go to any FAQ or tips on smoking a pork butt, and they all say allow 90 minutes a pound.  So if you had a 10lb pork butt, most are 8-9 lbs, 10x90 / 60 - 15 hours.  NO WHERE in any of those FAQs will they tell you to worry about getting the meat to 140º in 4 hours or less.   WHY?

Because what you need to worry about is getting the surface of the meat to 140º which will happen in less than an hour.

This may help understand from ServSafe Food Safety FAQ:

Q. Why is it safe to eat steaks cooked medium rare or medium, but not hamburgers cooked that way?

A. E.coli 0157: H7 bacteria can live in cattle's digestive systems. During processing, meat can be contaminated with the bacteria. With steaks, E.coli 0157: H7 is on the surface of the meat and is easily killed when the meat cooks on a hot grill. When meat is ground, however, the bacteria can be mixed throughout the hamburger, where it is harder to destroy. Hamburgers often look done before the meat is thoroughly cooked. Cook all ground meats to at least 155° F for 15 seconds to destroy E.coli 0157: H7. The meat should not be pink inside and juices should not be red or pink. Cook non-ground meats to at least 145°F for 15 seconds to reduce the risk of food borne illness.

Q. I have a question about the temperature of medium rare roast beef. I realize that E.coli 0157:H7 won't be in the center of the roast. However, if the temperature danger zone is 41° F to 140°F, how can the beef be safe when it is 130°F in the center, as is stated in the ServSafe[emoji]174[/emoji] coursebook.

A. Any E.coli 0157:H7 bacteria that might be present on the surface of the beef roast would be killed during the cooking process. The 130° F temperature is also dependent on maintaining the temperature for 121 minutes to assure that any bacteria that may have been present will be reduced or eliminated. The reason E.coli 0157:H7 bacteria maybe present in ground meat is due to the surface contamination being distributed through the product during the grinding process.

SO

Now you get to see how I broke all the rules when I smoked this Turkey from hell!  Please note the stuffing (a bad mistake, will NOT EVER again stuff a turkey I'm smoking.  Was cooked then almost immediately placed in the bird after about a 20 min cool down.

THE BIRD FROM HELL!

Being the stubborn type, after checking with the family, they all wanted to see a whole bird, so cutting in half was out. The big problem was how to fit that mega gobbler in the MES. A preliminary check after a 48 hour brine, clearly showed I couldn't get the door closed if I placed the bird horz. neck and butt facing the side walls, the neck/butt facing door & back wall again no fit. So how to cook this bird whole? Standing the bird up beer can chicken style, the bird fit!. One problem I don't own a beer can chicken stand that can support 30+lbs of turkey. I weight the bird it was 33 lb before 12-15 cups of wild rice/apple/sausage stuffing packed in the cavity and neck.

Solution to Vertical Bird....
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm161/yocalif/turkey4.jpg http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm161/yocalif/turkey3.jpg http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm161/yocalif/turkey2.jpg

Notice the rack the bird is sitting on is bowed

, as a precaution I used two racks.

Bird about to go into oven after reaching 140 F in the MES. It took 5 hours, Sacramento had a super cold night on Sunday 30 F (normal is 38-55), when the bird went in Monday it was 40 F, and in two hours dropped to 33 F. Now I know you Midwest and Eastern guys think those temps are Tshirt weather, but man it snowed early Monday morning, last time we had snow here was 2002. My MES is under the roof eave, so no comfy man-cave or garage. The MES digital temp never reached 200, but a separate inside cabinet thermometer read 240+ after the 1st hour, the meat probe temp steadily rose so I wasn't worried.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm161/yocalif/140turkey.jpg

The problem came after putting the turkey in a 350 1 hour preheated oven. The bird stalled at 155-160, I checked with 3 different thermometers and it was frustrating. Normally I only have to cook a turkey another 1-2 hours in the oven after getting to 140-150. Not this monster, 4.5 hours more was required to get the breast to 170.

The meat was super moist, the brine had done its job not only adding moisture, but the flavor boost was there too.

Lesson learned.....
I will NEVER again attempt cooking a turkey this big. 20 lbs will be the max. Brining the beast required a ice chest and 3 gal of brine, plus a huge bag of ice ( I should have planned better and froze some blocks of ice in advance).
My sink is barely large enough to hold a turkey of this size and get the faucet over the bird. Just moving and working with a bird this size is a real chore. While some would have cut the bird in half, I was worried about losing moistness, especially after the extra work of brining. Oh and never stuff a bird this big, it is tough enough trying to get it to temp without adding more difficulty.

Some info on this monster:

32+ lbs of Turkey (mistake! Stuffed)
Outside ambient at 3:30 PM 37-38 F
1 hour later 35 F
2 hours later 33 F
5 hours later 29 F ( I had a small thermometer that said it was actually colder, however I'm going by a guys weather station a couple of blocks away.)

• MES location outside under roof eve, in 8' high brick wall backyard (we are backed up to a major street), so very little wind chill.

• 40" MES (1.5 years old no-port window).
• Set temp 270 F,
• Max temp achieved according to the MES controller readout, 198 F.
• After 1 hour remote internal probe said inside MES temp was 230, and eventually remained steady 240-250.
• Every 30 minutes I checked the MES Controller temp, two Taylor remote temps (one in bird, one at base of bird in middle of cabinet), plus the outdoor ambient. The red light was ALWAYS on.
• I pulled the turkey at 140 deg and finished in the oven.

What was never said in either of the two posts:  When the breast reached a temp of 175º the thighs and legs still were around 150º.  So I cut the breasts out of the the steaming hot bird carcass (residual heat finished the breast at 180º), added another layer of foil and returned the bird to a 400º oven and it cooked almost another 3 hours.  Every ounce of that bird, breasts, thighs, legs, carcass, all tasted wonder and cooked perfectly.  A lot of on the spot improvisation was required, yet it all worked out great.

 

[mdboatbum]

There is a lot written on this forum that others have posted on the "danger zone" and getting whatever cut of meat through it in 4 hours.  Interesting that very few say that about a HUGE Pork BUTT, or how about a brisket.  Why haven't the millions who have dug a pit and buried a whole hog, get sick, it took 24hours + to cook?  You can go to any FAQ or tips on smoking a pork butt, and they all say allow 90 minutes a pound.  So if you had a 10lb pork butt, most are 8-9 lbs, 10x90 / 60 - 15 hours.  NO WHERE in any of those FAQs will they tell you to worry about getting the meat to 140º in 4 hours or less.   WHY?

Because what you need to worry about is getting the surface of the meat to 140º which will happen in less than an hour.

Actually there are a ton of references to getting a pork butt past 140˚ within 4 hours, especially if it's been injected or probed. Poultry is a whole separate issue. Surface contaminants are only part of the battle. Yes, some cuts take a LOOONG time to cook. Yes, sometimes the "danger zone" rule is broken. Yes, it varies from cut to cut and species to species. However, it's still REALLY good advice to try to get the entire piece of meat, not just the surface, out of the danger zone as quickly as possible. ESPECIALLY when dealing with commercially processed poultry.

 

[chef jimmyj]

Deltadude...The reason there is no issue with Big Butts or Briskets or any other cuts of solid muscle is they are Intact. Bacteria is on the surface and incapable of Boring into muscle. So you can take all the time you want to smoke that Butt. However, Inject it , Bone, Roll and Tie it, fill a bunch of slits with Garlic or break the surface in any other way and the surface Bacteria is now IN the meat and getting the IT over 140*F in for hour now becomes advisable. Unless you buy an " All Natural " Turkey, it is very likely it was Injected with a Broth Brine to keep it moist after cooking. Since soaking take too much time they are all Injected so the super common Salmonella Bacteria is not all throughout the interior of the meat. A bird over 14Lbs Smoked at 225*F may not get hot enough fast enough and problems can occur. In a similar situation Stuffing the bird lets the stuffing come in contact with the Raw juices in the birds cavity and greatly increases the mass of the bird. It takes a long time for that stuffing to get over 140*F and again there can be issues. Hope this clears things up. Your birds look Beautiful...JJ

 

[deltadude]

Chef Jimmy, I am not going to debate you, you are a trained pro (bowing to the "Chef" moniker in your aka). 

I am not encouraging anyone to follow my example or advice.  I am encouraging everyone who cooks to read for themselves many of the available sources on the internet regarding food safety.  After they read that info, then look at the commercial side and see how it is applied or not, and ask themselves why?  Go to a BBQ cookoff and watch the food handling, asking yourself if they are following food safety guidelines, if not, why aren't people getting sick, and health authorities shutting them down?

I provided enough info in the ServSafe quotes, which you basically confirm, that the bacteria is on the surface of the meat (unless ground meat), and provided either insertions, methods, processes don't break the surface contamination is generally not an issue.  Further you amplify other dangers regarding poultry, much appreciated.  What was not said is that most contaminates are killed at 165º if held for 5 minutes or more let alone the hours that my bird sat at 165º or greater making any danger negligible.  If the more dangerous forms of contaminates that can survive (in quantities great enough to do you harm)  temps over 200º, there is NO cooking method that will kill it without ruining the meat.

The only danger issue in my Bird from Hell, was the stuffing, which was cooked to 165º, and a few minutes later stuffed in the bird.  I work very hard at doing everything with clean almost sterile equipment and techniques to avoid cross contamination.  My temp probes are boiled in water, and if reinserted wiped with ammonia using a sterile pad.

The bird was a range grown all-natural bird, which I got all that poundage for about $10 the day after thanksgiving.

I am going to say it again, many are miss applying the 4 hours window, due to lack of knowledge.

 

[chef jimmyj]

Many misapply the concepts and guide lines, that is granted. There are many that are overly paranoid and will tell a member if their smoker ran out of fuel for an hour or two to Toss The Meat Out. You are correct that getting to a temp over even 140*F will kill just about every thing out there. But one of the most common bacteria that is everywhere especially on your skin, in your mouth and nasal passage and in the air, it is Staphylococcis Aureus. The  bacteria can contact food in many ways and even the most cautious person can easily contaminate food. Washing your hand with Antibacterial soap then a scratch of an itchy nose or pushing your hair out of your face, a slight cough to clear your throat or a sneeze from inhaling the Black Pepper dust applying your rub and you contaminated your hands, food , tools and work surfaces. You may feel no big deal, I will be cooking to 165*F and that will kill anything including Staph Aureus, nothing to worry about. But simply cooking to 165*F may not make you safe...many strains of Staph and other bacteria produce Toxins that are highly Heat Stable, meaning it will require temps in excess of 200*F to destroy the Toxins. A injected Butt or Whole Hog most likely not an issue you will get over 200*F to pull it but inject and contaminate a Turkey and only go to 165*F no help. Punch a bunch of garlic cloves in a Prime Rib then inject Worcestershire Sauce, smoke to a nice 125*F Rare and stuff it in a cooler to hold for a couple of hours and the next day you are wondering why you are waking up in the Hospital. Now none of this happens frequently, in fact it's rare, and food poisoning always requires a series of things to go wrong. But like any risky behavior, you can get away with it a Hundred, a Thousand times but it only takes one freak or unnoticed mishap to put you down. Going to BBQ Cookoffs and people are using unsafe practices and nobody gets sick...LUCK! Why is nobody shutting them down? There are only so many Health Inspectors, they can't be everywhere and I don't recall ever getting inspected on a weekend. I to am not here to debate these issues, Sanitation procedures or why Grandma defrosted the Turkey on the counter for 40 years and no one got sick. I have just been asked to share what I have learned, answer safety questions and help where I can. I put it out it is up to the individual to take it or leave it. Here is some info on Staph Aureus and gives much greater detail. Have a Happy Thanksgiving...JJ

http://www.fda.gov/food/foodsafety/...thogensnaturaltoxins/badbugbook/ucm070015.htm

 

[deltadude]

Many misapply the concepts and guide lines, that is granted. ..... especially on your skin, in your mouth and nasal passage and in the air, it is Staphylococcis Aureus. .....can easily contaminate food. ....... But simply cooking to 165*F may not make you safe......... Now none of this happens frequently, in fact it's rare, and food poisoning always requires a series of things to go wrong....... I to am not here to debate these issues, Sanitation procedures ....... I have just been asked to share what I have learned, answer safety questions and help where I can. I put it out it is up to the individual to take it or leave it. Here is some info on Staph Aureus and gives much greater detail. Have a Happy Thanksgiving...JJ

http://www.fda.gov/food/foodsafety/...thogensnaturaltoxins/badbugbook/ucm070015.htm

Chef Jimmy J, well said the "......" were to keep the quote short, thus all of your post is excellent.  Dude we are on the same page, and I think you know I make your point when I posted

If the more dangerous forms of contaminates that can survive (in quantities great enough to do you harm)  temps over 200º, there is NO cooking method that will kill it without ruining the meat.

And as you clearly point out, quote: "and food poisoning always requires a series of things to go wrong."

BTW in July my sister-in-law was hit with E. coli and admitted to emergency requiring a 5 day stay in the hospital.  She nearly died, her kidney's were shutting down, and it took 48 hours before they figured out what the problem was.  Today she is still recovering and weak, had she been elderly or a sickly 57 year old she would have died.

In August I was hit with the longest bought of intestinal problem I ever had lasting over a month, it came from handling an item that was just handled by a contaminated person, and within a couple of minutes I either drank, ate, or touched my eyes or rubbed my nose and thus became infected.

All cooks should make the effort to learn and correctly apply food safety info and procedures.

There is a reason I have 4 cutting boards in the kitchen, veggies don't get cut on the meat board or poultry board, there is a spray bottle of 50/50 ammonia/water on the counter and used on those boards and cutting instruments before even getting cleaned in hot water with cleaning solution.

Anyway I think we beat this topic to death, and appreciate very much the factual clarity you brought to the discussion.