cure question

[MeatSkull]

Gotta love when folks believe they are the admins of the company's that make the product! Sheesh!

 

[chef jimmyj]

When I was teaching I would take the students to an area slaughter house and butcher. Nell's did all the processing, curing and smoking on site. Their brine cured and smoked hams were the best I have eaten. The brine was injected then the hams soaked. They processed hundreds of hams a week. The brine was mixed in varying batches from 10 to 100 gallons as needed. Do you think they weighed and dumped individual ingredients? Nope... The salt, sugar, cure #1 and seasoning mix came in boxes, mixed off site by another company. The cure came 50 boxes to a pallet. The amount of cure needed, for various sized batches, was scooped, weighed and mixed in to the water. If separation of the ingredients was causing problems, there is no way this 3 generationcompany would still be in business. Nell and Sons brought in and drew mix from a Ton of cure mix. Armour, Mash's and many other National ham producer's must be bringing in TRAIN CAR LOADS of bulk cure. The cure stored in silos. I highly doubt cure separation, to toxic or ineffectual levels are an issue to worry, or argue, about whatsoever.
If pre-mixing is convenient for your nneeds, make your mix, following a trusted formula, give the container a shake before each use and enjoy your ham...JJ

 

[chef jimmyj]

Wet "cure" (salt, sugar and curing salt) is based on quantities of water. Dry "cures" (salt, sugar and curing salt) are based on the weight of the meat.

Please do not suggest to anyone that to make a "wet" cure you simply take dry cure amounts (3%, .5% & .25%) and add enough water to it to cover a cut of meat.

Why Not? Does it really make a difference if the moisture comes from the meat or 4, even 8 ounces of water is added to get things going?

There is just too much Fear Mongering, deliberate or in good faith, regarding BASIC wet and dry curing with Cure #1. Newbies will be sent Sceaming into the Night reading some of these posts.

Let's see if your answer to the following is based on accurate knowledge or misunderstanding of Cure #1.
Don't be afraid to be wrong. If we already knew it all, we would not need to be here...

Which of the following is Dangerous?
They all have different amounts of meat, cure, and water. Some are volume measured others by Weight...

Recipe 1...Add 1 Tablespoon Cure #1, 1 cup Table Salt and 2 Cups Sugar to 1 Gallon of Water. Add one or more pork bellies, not packing too tightly and making sure the meat is covered by the brine. Refrigerate the meat and Brine for 7 days per inch thickness of the bellies.

Recipe 2...Add the following to a pot. Bring to just to a boil, cool, then refrigerate until cold. Add a 2 to 4 pound porkloin. Soak 72 hours and smoke.

• 2 liters water or 2 quarts of water
• 90 grams (6 tablespoons Morton’s) kosher salt
• 20 grams (1 tablespoons) sodium nitrite (I use DQ Cure #1)
• 125 grams sugar or 4 ounces (1/2 cup)
• 5 cloves garlic smashed with the flat side of a knife
• 2 bay leaves
• 1 large bunch of sage (optional)
• 7 or 8 thyme sprigs (optional)
• 1 lemon halved (optional)

Recipe 3...Weigh the following ingredients to 2 decimal places and combine. Cure for 7 days per inch then rest an additional 7 days to equalize the cure ingredient distribution.

1) Weigh the desired piece of Skinless pork belly or Loin in grams.
2) Weigh the amount of water needed to cover by 1 to 2 inches.
3) Weigh out an amount of Salt, any, to equal 2% of the combined weight of the meat and water.
4) Weigh out an amount of Sugar to equal 1% of the combined weight of the meat and water.
5) Add the weight of all ingredients together.
6) Weigh out an amount of Cure #1 that equals 0.25% of the combined weights of all other ingredients. Mix thoroughly and add tube meat.

Good luck...JJ

 

[smokerjim]

I'll go with number 2, what I've read here is you shouldn't add the cure until after you boil and cool the other ingredients, also shouldn't you go by the thickness of the meat and not so much the weight to see how long to cure. Since some loins are thicker then others.I'm not worried I'm usually wrong anyway.

 

[smokerjim]

I could be wrong but I think I remember reading on s m f you shouldn't add the cure until the liquid cools SO the cure doesn't start to break down, maybe I miss read, please let me know if I wrong

 

[browneyesvictim]

I highly doubt cure separation, to toxic or ineffectual levels are an issue to worry, or argue, about whatsoever.
If pre-mixing is convenient for your nneeds, make your mix, following a trusted formula, give the container a shake before each use and enjoy your ham...JJ

Thanks JJ. I knew I wasn't crazy. I wasn't expecting so many other seasoned doubting Mufastas.

Holly2015 - Please read step#5 in recipe #3. The weight of the water should be added in the total calculation in that method.


EDIT: Recipe #2 is "DANGEROUS" recipe choice not because of the recipe itself, but rather the technique. This is because you do not want to add cure to hot water or boil it. You can boil the water to purify it, and even add the other ingredients (minus cure) first to help dissolve. then add cure 1 AFTER it has cooled.

 

[chef jimmyj]

Holly, I think you are misunderstanding what I wrote. Nowhere did I say it's OK to take a dry cure based on the weight of the meat, " mix them into a bucket of water (enough to cover and fully submerse the 1000g meat) "!

My words, " Does it really make a difference if the moisture comes from the meat or 4, even 8 ounces of water is added to get things going?

You are correct, 2.5g of Cure #1 in a Gallon or more of water is at least 10X too little and will not be effective.

Regarding Recipe 1. I apologize. In my haste I neglected to include the cure time and temp. I edited the instructions. Please see if you wish to change your answer.

Read #3 again. Step 1) Weigh meat. Step 2) Weigh water.

I want to give a little more time to let other members answer. I will post the answer later tonite...JJ

 

[chef jimmyj]

I posted:

Wet "cure" (salt, sugar and curing salt) is based on quantities of water. Dry "cures" (salt, sugar and curing salt) are based on the weight of the meat.

Please do not suggest to anyone that to make a "wet" cure you simply take dry cure amounts (3%, .5% & .25%) and add enough water to it to cover a cut of meat.

The very next reply was yours with the opening statement:

Why Not? Does it really make a difference if the moisture comes from the meat or 4, even 8 ounces of water is added to get things going?

Oh ok, You seem to be thinking MeatSkull is placing the meat in a large container and adding quarts or gallons of water. I didn't read it that way. My interpretation was adding a small amount of water making a wet brine to get things going. This is why I specified 4 to 8 ounces. I should have given MeatSkull an opportunity to clarify for himself after your response.
This how vague or incomplete posts can lead to misinterpretation and debate, thankfully enjoyable and not heated or ugly. Thanks for your friendly choice of words in successive posts ...JJ

 

[chef jimmyj]

I agree and am happy to have another knowledgeable member participate in passing on our art...JJ

 

[smokerjim]

Holly2015, I went back and read #55, in that line I said shouldn't you which the n't does belong there it's more of a question, if I said you shouldn't you would be correct. Anyway all these post just goes to show all the knowledge that is on this site. I have learned and keep learning lots over the last couple years.

 

[chopsaw]

I hope you got an answer to your question .

 

[smokerjim]

By the way what was my question, only kidding, what I got out of this is members just what people to cure things safely, yes maybe some are perfectionist and overly safe, but that's ok better to error on the side of caution, in the end I will stick with my plan 2 with bear carvers and 2 with browneyes, though I'll cure them this weekend I'm feeling they will basically taste the same.

 

[Bearcarver]

You are correct. Heat breaks down cure (nitrate/nitrite) so it is not to be added until after the base is cool.

You are also correct and the cure duration is calculated on meat thickness and not overall weight. This is where you mistakenly added the "n't" to should in post #55.

Jim used "n't" correctly on that, because he formed that sentence as a Question. ("Shouldn't" you go by the Thickness of the Meat?"

And you are both right---Yes, go by the thickness of the meat for curing time, not the Weight.

Bear

 

[Bearcarver]

Somebody please call Mortons & tell them they're wasting a lot of time and Money Bonding their Tender Quick.
The Pros here say it isn't necessary. No such thing as the Stratification they've been avoiding all these years.

Bear

 

[browneyesvictim]

Bear, I prefer to handload my own hunting ammo. How about you?
I can shoot better MOA with it than factory loads...

 

[smokerjim]

Bear don't get upset, if everyone agreed on the same thing this would be one boring site, believe me I'm no pro and what I've been reading, yes mortons makes it to where mistakes won't be made with calculating , making sure cure is spread evenly , making it a easier process, but I do see the other people's point also that if one is careful there is no issues with making your own, I wonder if there are any studies out there to show how people sicken or kill themselves curing meats and what they used.

 

[chef jimmyj]

Somebody please call Mortons & tell them they're wasting a lot of time and Money Bonding their Tender Quick.
The Pros here say it isn't necessary. No such thing as the Stratification they've been avoiding all these years.

Bear

What Morton does is their choice and likely necessary because they are blending Pure Nitrite. YES if that separated to the bottom of a mix, it would be toxic. We are talking mixing in Cure #1, a totally different situation. No one will be hurt because they're Tupperware container of cure mix is not bonded. Other companies mixing cure just shows its a common practice...JJ

 

[chef jimmyj]

Which of the following is Dangerous?
They all have different amounts of meat, cure, and water. Some are volume measured others by Weight...

The answer? NONE OF THEM ARE DANGEROUS.

The USDA sets the maximum amount of Sodium Nitrite at 120 ppm for Belly Bacon because of typical high heat cooking until crisp. And a max level of 200 for non-commuted meats like Loin Canadian Bacon and Ham. There is a minimum standard of 120 ppm for raw, must be refrigerated, cured meats, again raw Bacon, but there is no minimum standard for cooked or processed meats that have a low pH or low moisture to aid preservation. For safe and adequate cured meat coloration, tests have shown that as little as 40 ppm will get the job done.
Exceptions to the above 120 ppm minimum are granted on a case by case bases when testing demonstrates the manufacturer methods are safe.
From the USDA Inspectors Handbook of standards...

As a matter of policy, the Agency requires a minimum of 120 ppm of ingoing nitrite in all cured
"Keep Refrigerated" products, unless the establishment can demonstrate that safety is assured by
some other preservation process, such as thermal processing, pH or moisture control. This 120
ppm policy for ingoing nitrite is based on safety data reviewed when the bacon standard was
developed.
There is no regulatory minimum ingoing nitrite level for cured products that have been processed
to ensure their shelf stability (such as having undergone a complete thermal process, or having
been subjected to adequate pH controls, and/or moisture controls in combination with appropriate
packaging). However, 40 ppm nitrite is useful in that it has some preservative effect. This
amount has also been shown to be sufficient for color-fixing purposes and to achieve the expected
cured meat or poultry appearance.


Recipe 1...Add 1 Tablespoon Cure #1, 1 cup Table Salt and 2 Cups Sugar to 1 Gallon of Water. Add one or more pork bellies, not packing too tightly and making sure the meat is covered by the brine. Refrigerate the meat and Brine for 7 days per inch thickness of the bellies.
This first recipe should be familiar as Pop's Brine. It is not only generations old, it has been tested by the USDA to be effective. It's SAFE!
Recipe 2...Add the following to a pot. Bring to just to a boil, cool, then refrigerate until cold. Add a 2 to 4 pound porkloin. Soak 72 hours and smoke.
This second recipe is from our beloved Michael Ruhlman. It has been around several decades and has been reviewed by colleagues for accuracy. Now many dismiss it as being unsafe because the Cure #1 gets heated and can dissipate. But considering 20 grams in 2 liters of water is twice what Pop's is using, there is likely some dissipation but the brine cure level does not drop below 40 ppm. Surely the Professor that teaches Meat Curing and Charcuterie at the CIA, were students use this method, would have called Mr. Ruhlman out on any flaws. It too is Safe...But, the members and staff at SMF do not advocate heating Cure #1. There is just not enough control over the residual amount of Nitrite to guarantee success.

• 2 liters water or 2 quarts of water
• 90 grams (6 tablespoons Morton’s) kosher salt
• 20 grams (1 tablespoons) sodium nitrite (I use DQ Cure #1)
• 125 grams sugar or 4 ounces (1/2 cup)
• 5 cloves garlic smashed with the flat side of a knife
• 2 bay leaves
• 1 large bunch of sage (optional)
• 7 or 8 thyme sprigs (optional)
• 1 lemon halved (optional)

Recipe 3...Weigh the following ingredients to 2 decimal places and combine. Cure for 7 days per inch then rest an additional 7 days to equalize the cure ingredient distribution.

1) Weigh the desired piece of Skinless pork belly or Loin in grams.
2) Weigh the amount of water needed to cover by 1 to 2 inches.
3) Weigh out an amount of Salt, any, to equal 2% of the combined weight of the meat and water.
4) Weigh out an amount of Sugar to equal 1% of the combined weight of the meat and water.
5) Add the weight of all ingredients together.
6) Weigh out an amount of Cure #1 that equals 0.25% of the combined weights of all other ingredients. Mix thoroughly and add the meat.

This last recipe, formula really, is from our learned Curing Guru, DaveOmak. I personally know this was years in development and based strictly on extensive review of USDA guidelines and the calculations in the Inspectors Handbook.
100% Safe.

So there you go. If you know the recommended max amount of cure. You are safe but understand it is 3X the max that has to be consumed, In One Sitting, to be Toxic. DON'T beat up or SCARE some Newbie because they are at 250 or even 300 ppm or below 120 ppm. Know what are the correct amounts so you can pass accurate and complete advice. Teach what's correct and how to fix it.
With a few exceptions, Belly Bacon, Sausage and a few other uncooked meats, 40 ppm to 200 ppm is a Safe amount of Nitrite...JJ

 

[MeatSkull]

When I was teaching I would take the students to an area slaughter house and butcher. Nell's did all the processing, curing and smoking on site. Their brine cured and smoked hams were the best I have eaten. The brine was injected then the hams soaked. They processed hundreds of hams a week. The brine was mixed in varying batches from 10 to 100 gallons as needed. Do you think they weighed and dumped individual ingredients? Nope... The salt, sugar, cure #1 and seasoning mix came in boxes, mixed off site by another company. The cure came 50 boxes to a pallet. The amount of cure needed, for various sized batches, was scooped, weighed and mixed in to the water. If separation of the ingredients was causing problems, there is no way this 3 generationcompany would still be in business. Nell and Sons brought in and drew mix from a Ton of cure mix. Armour, Mash's and many other National ham producer's must be bringing in TRAIN CAR LOADS of bulk cure. The cure stored in silos. I highly doubt cure separation, to toxic or ineffectual levels are an issue to worry, or argue, about whatsoever.
If pre-mixing is convenient for your nneeds, make your mix, following a trusted formula, give the container a shake before each use and enjoy your ham...JJ

Yup! I doubt they ever tested the cures for exact amounts never mind using gram scales.

 

[MeatSkull]

Wet "cure" (salt, sugar and curing salt) is based on quantities of water. Dry "cures" (salt, sugar and curing salt) are based on the weight of the meat.

Please do not suggest to anyone that to make a "wet" cure you simply take dry cure amounts (3%, .5% & .25%) and add enough water to it to cover a cut of meat.

Water is inert which means..chemically inactive. The meat will absorb the cure whether 1 cup or one gallon. For this I do use chlorinated tap water.