cure question

[MeatSkull]

No Sir. Cure #2 is used for long Dry Curing. This is done at a controlled temp, 50 to 60°F (in The Danger Zone) and high humidity, 65 to 80%. A very comfortable environment for bacterial growth. In fact, we are Counting on good bacteria and mold growth to inhibit bad bacteria growth and to convert the Nitrate in Cure #2 to Nitrite, over time, months, to kill the really nasty Clostridium Botulinum and keep Fat in the meat from turning rancid.
Cure #1 is short acting, weeks to a month or two, and it's job, containing only Nitrite, is exclusively for killing CB and inhibiting fat rancidity.
Since Dry Curing and using Cure #2 require very specific conditions, it's use is not for beginners trying to grasp the very basics of using Cure #1 and the reason for JD's comment that Cure #2 can add to confusion...JJ

Ham is a long cure project, I've made a few in my day.

 

[chef jimmyj]

Sodium Nitrite is a salt. Like all salts in water, meat contains water as well, the salt will move from an area of high concentration to an area of low concentration, until equibrium is reached. This is Dispersion. There will always end up being an equal concentration of Nitrite in the meat and the water. This is why when Brine Curing, we combine the weight of the meat and water when determining the amount of Cure needed. In the end you will have the same concentration in the meat and water, equalibrium...JJ

 

[MeatSkull]

Bear, I prefer to handload my own hunting ammo. How about you?
I can shoot better MOA with it than factory loads...

I shoot factory better than most handloaders. Then again I've been shooting over 50 years. ;)

 

[chef jimmyj]

Ham is a long cure project, I've made a few in my day.

Ham does take awhile. There is a difference between Brine cured City Ham cured in the refer and Dry Cured meats like Salami, that take months to cure at a bacteria growing 55°F. Wet curing in the refer uses Cure #1. Dry curing at 55°F uses Cure #2. This is because over time Nitrite will dissipate at the warm 55°. Beneficial Bacteria in the Salami breakdown the Nitrate in Cure #2 converting it to New amounts of Nitrite, replacing that which dissipated, and extents the protection from Bad Bacteria...JJ

 

[Bearcarver]

Bear, I prefer to handload my own hunting ammo. How about you?
I can shoot better MOA with it than factory loads...

If you actually think that is a similar problem, there's nothing I can say.

Bear

 

[Bearcarver]

Bear don't get upset, if everyone agreed on the same thing this would be one boring site, believe me I'm no pro and what I've been reading, yes mortons makes it to where mistakes won't be made with calculating , making sure cure is spread evenly , making it a easier process, but I do see the other people's point also that if one is careful there is no issues with making your own, I wonder if there are any studies out there to show how people sicken or kill themselves curing meats and what they used.

I agree that if one is very carful, there shouldn't be a problem.
There probably isn't a lot of deaths since they pretty much stopped using Salt Peter (Potassium Nitrate).
All I can do is put my opinion out there, and people can take it or leave it.

Bear

 

[Bearcarver]

What Morton does is their choice and likely necessary because they are blending Pure Nitrite. YES if that separated to the bottom of a mix, it would be toxic. We are talking mixing in Cure #1, a totally different situation. No one will be hurt because they're Tupperware container of cure mix is not bonded. Other companies mixing cure just shows its a common practice...JJ

I agree,
My main worry is if people make a large amount of their own mix, and use it like I use Tender Quick.
I keep the whole 2 pound bag in my cabinet, and take small amounts out now & then, over sometimes a period of more than a year or two. I never take the bag out & re-shake it, or dump it out & stir it, because I know I don't have to because of the way Morton "Bonded" it. I believe if anybody did that with their own "Faux TQ" they could get in trouble at the bottom of the bag.
I would recommend, if people make their own Mix, that they re-mix any leftovers before they use it again & each time they use any of the leftovers.

Bear

 

[Bearcarver]

Mods Please Delete.

Bear

 

[smokerjim]

Im almost afraid to ask but if I do make my own cure mix, how long will I be able to store it.

 

[Bearcarver]

Im almost afraid to ask but if I do make my own cure mix, how long will I be able to store it.

I would imagine like TQ---Indefinitely, as long as you keep it dry & out of the light.
Just make sure you remix it good before each use, due to Stratification. IMHO.

Bear

 

[motocrash]

If you're going to make a batch,I wouldn't make it too big.After all,the idea of using cure #1 is being able to adjust your sugar and salt content to your taste and whatever meat you're curing.For example,I don't use the same ratios when making corned beef/pastrami as I would with buckboard bacon.

 

[smokerjim]

Ok thanks

 

[MeatSkull]

Sodium Nitrite is a salt. Like all salts in water, meat contains water as well, the salt will move from an area of high concentration to an area of low concentration, until equibrium is reached. This is Dispersion. There will always end up being an equal concentration of Nitrite in the meat and the water. This is why when Brine Curing, we combine the weight of the meat and water when determining the amount of Cure needed. In the end you will have the same concentration in the meat and water, equalibrium...JJ

Yeah I need FDA proof on that or it's heresay.

 

[MeatSkull]

Honestly how many pieces of meats are you curing on the regular basis? What are you hoping to save building a bulk cure verses building individual cures. If its time over your not saving much.

I've been curing 1 to 3 pieces every weekend for the last 5 weeks. Building a bulk cure might have saved me 3 minutes total. I still would have to break out the scale to weigh out the individual spice blends so weighing out 3 more ingredients (salt, cure, sugar) really doesn't add a significant amount of time to the process.

Granted if I was assembly lining 100's of piece of meats per day then I probably use some time saving measures. But since I'm creating mico quantities of boutique cured meats a few extra seconds here and there aren't making or breaking the process.

Whom you talking to?

 

[chopsaw]

Holly , well said .

 

[MeatSkull]

Im almost afraid to ask but if I do make my own cure mix, how long will I be able to store it.

If you make your own I suggest just using #1 or #2 and make what you need at the time. #1 or #2 wont go bad if you keep it sealed.

 

[MeatSkull]

If you mix #1 and #2 together do you get #3?

Suggesting that you "just" use #1 or #2 is not sage advise. As discussed several times these cures (1 & 2) are not interchangeable and you need to match the cure to the product you are making not "just" pick what's handy!

WOW! I said or! Splain yourself. I think your lost on the subject.

 

[MeatSkull]

Feel free to seek out the proof you need. Let us know how you make out.

Question mark......

 

[pc farmer]

Keep it civil you two. So far this thread as been helping others until you two started bickering.

Keep helpful information coming.

 

[chef jimmyj]

Yeah I need FDA proof on that or it's heresay.

This is not FDA or USDA, it's High School Chemistry 101. Salts and in this case the Sodium Salts, Sodium Chloride (NaCl), table salt and Sodium Nitrite (NaNO2), in Cure #1, break into Ions when dissolved in water. Ions are chemically charged particles that gain or lose an electron becoming Polar compared to the electrically stable molecules. The Ions are attracted to ions or compounds with opposite charges and are repelled by like charges. Think Magnets. When you mix Salt and Cure in water, the stable compounds essential dissolve intof various Sodium Ions. The now Brine loaded with tightly packed Like charge ion NEED to separate. Since there is a big chunk of meat with no or few Sodium Ions, into the meat is the only place to go. The Ions move from the High concentration, brine, to the area of Low concentration, meat, until the entire System is in balance aka, Reaches Equilibrium, same amount of Salt and Cure Sodium Ions in the meat and in the brine. Below is a more detailed explanation...

Water is NOT always inert. First Gases can be inert as in they can prevent other chemical reaction or are Non-reactive them selves. Water can be inert when it dissolve a molecule but does not form a new compound. But Water is a Polar Compound. It has both a reactive Positive Charge, the Hydrogen end of the molecule. And a reactive Negative Charge, the double atom Oxygen end of the molecule. Adding electrically stable compounds, Table Salt, Cure and thousands of others, to water will cause them to dissolve as the charged water molecules pull them apart. There are many reaction where water combines to form a new compound.

Equilibrium Curing

As a method, equilibrium curing differs from the more traditional methods of packing the meat in salt (the Salt Box Method) or submerging it in a concentrated saline solution (Brining). While traditional methods have the virtue of diffusing a lot of salt (more accurately, sodium ions) into the meat quickly (and thus accelerating curing and preventing spoiling), equilibrium curing has the virtue of eliminating the risk of the cured meat becoming too salty. Thus the equilibrium curing method is less wasteful of curing salts can be particularly useful for beginners.

Contents
[hide]

• 1 The Method
• 2 Modified Equilibrium Curing
• 3 Notes and Limitations
• 4 Sources

The Method
This method is quite straightforward, as long as you know the weight of the meat in the item you're curing and the desired concentration of salt in the final product. When calculating the weight of the meat, you will need to subtract the weight of any bones, which will not absorb salt. (In the case of whole poultry, this can be significant, with bones accounting for up to 40% of total weight of the bird.) To the weight of the meat, add that of the water used (if brining), and then calculate the amount of salt you need. The metric system makes this particularly easy. For example, say you want a final salt concentration in the cured meat of 1.75%. Your meat weighs 0.5kg and you're using 0.5kg (500ml) of water, for 1kg total weight. 1.75% of 1000g is simply 17.5g of salt you will need to dissolve in the water. To be strictly accurate, you would also need to take the weight of the salt into account and add an extra 0.31g to compensate, but in practical terms this is insignificant, as, in the example given, it only lowers the final sodium level by 1.77% for a final concentration in the meat of 1.72% instead of the target of 1.75%. Perhaps a simpler way to do this is to reduce the amount of water in the brine, so that the weight of the water PLUS the cure equals the target weight for the brine.

At first, all this sodium will be in the water and not in the meat, but it will gradually diffuse through the meat until the salt concentration in the meat and the water are the same or in "equilibrium." No matter how long the meat sits in the brine, it cannot become saltier than it, and so there is no risk of over-salting.

Equilibrium brining can be done in a container or in a vacuum-sealed bag. In either case, it's desirable to agitate the water occasionally, in order to keep the sodium evenly dispersed. If vacuum-sealing, you can even eliminate the added water. The desired amount of salt is simply applied to all surfaces of the meat (for 500g of meat, 8.75g of salt will yield a concentration of 1.75%) and vacuum-sealed with it. The salt will extract moisture from the meat and create a concentrated brine around it.

Modified Equilibrium Curing
The rate at which sodium ions are absorbed is not linear, but follows a curve, in which the cure enters the meat quite quickly initially and becomes slower over time, taking awhile to reach true equilibrium. A limited test of this method by individuals on the sausagemaking forum found that 50% of the desired amount of sodium had been taken up by the meat in just a few days while full equilibrium was unlikely to be reached in less than about 19 days per kg of meat. As a result of these findings, they recommended a modified equilibrium curing method that significantly reduces the curing time.

Since their test indicated that 85% of equilibrium was reached in about 10 days, they recommend increasing the initial amount of the cure by 17.5% in order to reach the desired sodium concentration in the meat in 10 days or half the time it would take for a true equilibrium cure. Using this modified method, it's important to note that the sodium will not be evenly distributed throughout the meat (as it would if it had reached true equilibrium), and so the meat will still need a resting period after curing to allow the sodium to equalize.

Notes and Limitations
If a whole muscle is going to be dried after curing, then the moisture loss during drying has to be taken into account when calculating the salt. For example, if a final salt concentration of 3% is desired, and the meat weighs 1kg, but will eventually be hung to dry until it loses 40% of its weight, ie achieves a final weight of 600g, then the amount of salt needed is 3 X 6 or 18g (assuming no added water).

It is also important to note that vacuum-packing meat with salt is not necessarily the same as equilibrium curing. Unless the meat stays in the cure long enough to reach equilibrium with the brine, this is simply a modified version of the Salt Box Method.

Finally, it's important to understand that the equilibrium is between the meat and the surrounding brine and does not refer to the diffusion of sodium within the meat, although in practice it comes to the same thing. By the time the meat reaches equilibrium with the brine, sodium will be relatively evenly dispersed throughout the meat. In contrast, with traditional cures, the meat will come out of the cure sooner, but then it will still need a resting period to allow the salt levels to equalize throughout.

Sources
http://forum.sausagemaking.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=6314

Nathan Myhrvold et al., Modernist Cuisine