Cinder block smoker for restaurant approval

[cheflusk420]

Has anyone encountered issues with local zoning or planning laws regarding homemade cinder block smokers. Mostly regarding it not being UL certified. Seems like some areas can get around it and others can’t. Was gonna build one but it doesn’t seem kosher because it’s not UL certified. Any ways around it ?

 

[bill1]

UL is mostly an electrical safety test/certification lab. CSA is the equivalent for gas safety. Was your smoker going to be electric or gas or wood or????

If you can show certifications from these "Nationally Recognized Test Laboratories" for all the piece parts that go into your finished smoker, that can carry a lot of weight with inspectors. (It's not quite the same thing as a certification of the finished product, since it is possible to put safe parts together in an unsafe manner.) This may sound burdensome, but if you're starting from scratch, it really isn't that much more costly to ensure all your electrical parts are UL listed (or some other NRTL such as ETL) or all your gas parts are CSA. It eliminates a lot of Chinese parts from eBay but typical regional distributors will know exactly what and why you're asking for these "marks".

You may want to check the webpages of commercial smoker vendors. I suspect many will claim their products are "UL Compliant" or maybe "UL Recognized", which really just means the piece parts are listed and the vendor is claiming they're assembled and used per UL requirements. But that is NOT the same as a NRTL certification of the entire unit itself.

Counties vary a lot in interpreting these things, and even inspectors within a county can vary. Your best bet is to talk with someone else in your town in the restaurant business.

Similarly you probably want to ensure you're using "food grade" utensils and cookware.

Note county public health departments will take an interest in the cleanliness of your operation as well.

 

[cheflusk420]

UL is mostly an electrical safety test/certification lab. CSA is the equivalent for gas safety. Was your smoker going to be electric or gas or wood or????

If you can show certifications from these "Nationally Recognized Test Laboratories" for all the piece parts that go into your finished smoker, that can carry a lot of weight with inspectors. (It's not quite the same thing as a certification of the finished product, since it is possible to put safe parts together in an unsafe manner.) This may sound burdensome, but if you're starting from scratch, it really isn't that much more costly to ensure all your electrical parts are UL listed (or some other NRTL such as ETL) or all your gas parts are CSA. It eliminates a lot of Chinese parts from eBay but typical regional distributors will know exactly what and why you're asking for these "marks".

You may want to check the webpages of commercial smoker vendors. I suspect many will claim their products are "UL Compliant" or maybe "UL Recognized", which really just means the piece parts are listed and the vendor is claiming they're assembled and used per UL requirements. But that is NOT the same as a NRTL certification of the entire unit itself.

Counties vary a lot in interpreting these things, and even inspectors within a county can vary. Your best bet is to talk with someone else in your town in the restaurant business.

Similarly you probably want to ensure you're using "food grade" utensils and cookware.

Note county public health departments will take an interest in the cleanliness of your operation as well.

It was going to be completely wood fired. The building dept through the town came back and said it wasn’t gonna be allowed because it was handmade despite it being sealed with high temp fire sealant and the grate inside is stainless expanded steel. I live in a county that is pretty stringent apparently. We brought over our smoker from the other restaurant for the time being which came from a company. I see places in Texas that have brick smokers that were clearly handmade and it makes me wonder. Health dept said it was fine during our pre opening inspection. Now I have to deal with zoning and planning depts and all that crap. It’s already put together but can be disassembled and moved to our other place for the time being fairly quickly. Guess it comes down to it being handmade vs commercially built. That’s why I was confused when the building inspector mentioned UL approval when it’s not electric at all

thanks for your insight

 

[bill1]

Hmmm. Wood. This sounds more like fireplace safety. They gave you no idea what they didn't like?

What's your exhaust method like? Is it well-sealed? Does it look double-walled? A lot of this is fire safety...was this a health and safety guy or someone with the fire dept who shut you down? Did you have multiple fire exits? Lighted exit signs??

I wouldn't concentrate too much on places that have similar eqpt that seem to pass. Every place has "grandfather clauses", overt or not, that gives existing situations more leeway than new. We just have to get your rig up to snuff.

Sometimes you can get too close to something and not see what others do. If you post some pictures of your rig and your planned usage areas, we can maybe give you some idea of simple things to do to get back in their good graces.

 

[cheflusk420]

It’s outdoors. The building dept through the town said because it wasn’t commercially made it’s a no go. It’s sealed with 3m fire block sealant and has two exhausts on the end all of which are sealed. Health dept said it was fine. The town and their zoning bs thought otherwise. As far as measurements from the building and any other combustible items, it meets the requirements.

 

[chef jimmyj]

In PA Restaurants all kitchen equipment must be NSF Certified. Having a National Sanitation Foundation equipment Certification basically means the equipment will not harbor Bacteria, no porous material. Food grade material like Stainless Steel and meets worker safety guidelines. No Sharp edges and welded seams.
We can't just Build a Smoker. We have to buy an NSF Certified Commercially Built Smoker...JJ

 

[bill1]

It’s outdoors. The building dept through the town said because it wasn’t commercially made ...

As I mentioned for gas and electric standards, you could probably say "certified to NSF standards" for non-commercially-integrated (homebrew) cookers and maybe get a little slack. But then you'll need to learn and follow these standards, in particular NSF/ANSI 4 which applies to cooking equipment. This is not unlike building your own home...you can do it but you certainly need to fully understand and follow the Universal Building Code and National Electric Code before you invest in materials, time, and before calling out an inspector.

As JJ said, that brick is a problem. For starters, you'd need to cover the top and sides with continuously welded stainless sheet (something that can be regularly wiped down with disinfectant.) You should verify that exposed brick in the cooking part of the chamber is allowed, which I think it is, but again I know nothing about restaurant regulations. This is not a family, church, or scout fundraiser you're considering embarking on.

I agree from a fire safety standpoint, the picture you provided looks ok...that's what the building spacing and combustibility comments were addressing.

But this is not portable, at all. Any outdoor cooking establishment I'm aware of stores their equipment, off-hours, inside a normal restaurant environment, away from stray animals that can urinate on it, etc.

I think the building dept was doing you a favor. Ultimately it's the health dept that determines these sanitation requirements. I'm completely flabbergasted that anyone from a US county health dept said it was fine.

 

[chef jimmyj]

Different States have different regulations. You will need to get with your Inspectors and see what you need to be in compliance.

Watching some of these TV Shows and Videos of BBQ Shacks and even some fancy Q Joints, with 100 year old Brick or Stone Pits, cooking on Rusty Re-bar...No way they are NSF CERTIFIED! What is OK in Mississippi will not necessarily fly in New York...JJ

 

[cheflusk420]

As I mentioned for gas and electric standards, you could probably say "certified to NSF standards" for non-commercially-integrated (homebrew) cookers and maybe get a little slack. But then you'll need to learn and follow these standards, in particular NSF/ANSI 4 which applies to cooking equipment. This is not unlike building your own home...you can do it but you certainly need to fully understand and follow the Universal Building Code and National Electric Code before you invest in materials, time, and before calling out an inspector.

As JJ said, that brick is a problem. For starters, you'd need to cover the top and sides with continuously welded stainless sheet (something that can be regularly wiped down with disinfectant.) You should verify that exposed brick in the cooking part of the chamber is allowed, which I think it is, but again I know nothing about restaurant regulations. This is not a family, church, or scout fundraiser you're considering embarking on.

I agree from a fire safety standpoint, the picture you provided looks ok...that's what the building spacing and combustibility comments were addressing.

But this is not portable, at all. Any outdoor cooking establishment I'm aware of stores their equipment, off-hours, inside a normal restaurant environment, away from stray animals that can urinate on it, etc.

I think the building dept was doing you a favor. Ultimately it's the health dept that determines these sanitation requirements. I'm completely flabbergasted that anyone from a US county health dept said it was fine.

Thanks for your input. We are just gonna get an indoor electric smoker and an outdoor backup offset from Myron for now. Luckily we didn’t have too much invested in it. Just gonna break it down and use the blocks to get a garden going instead.

 

[chef jimmyj]

You can always use Fresh Herbs in restaurants. Glad to hear you are moving forward...JJ