Brisket danger?

[smoker-rco]

I've stalled at 126 IT and it's been 4+ hours ---am I still ok?

 

[geerock]

What are you cooking on and at what temp? How big a brisket?

 

[smoker-rco]

smoking in a Smoke Hollow 30162E at 210-245 temp -- 7.5 pound

 

[geerock]

That means you've been under 140 IT for well over 5 hours. Are you sure you're cooking temp is right? If you are depending on the smoke hollow gauge you may be making a mistake. I'm guessing you are not cooking at the temp you think you are. A 7.5 lb flat sitting for that long is odd.
BTW.... cooking brisket at a higher temp will keep this from happening and simply allow you to get to eating quicker.

 

[smoker-rco]

I bumped the temp up to 250-275 and now she's climbing --- 131 IT now

 

[smoker-rco]

I have a maverick ET-732 for a therm

 

[smoker-rco]

136 IT after 6 hours --- not sure I should chance it  :( :( :( 

 

[smoker-rco]

140 IT at 6.5 hr  --- should I count my loses?

 

[foamheart]

I would guess you'll be fine. Like Old School BBQ says, Patience.

I maybe wrong (it does happen), but the 4hour/140 degree rule is for bone in or injected meat.

15% preparation, 5% luck, and 80% patience.

 

[smoker-rco]

I've had the meat therm. probe in the whole time --- does that count as

"injected"?

 

[foamheart]

Actually, yes it does.

http://www.smokingmeatforums.com/t/121168/40-140-in-4-hours-discussion

The 4/140 " Rule" is not an exact statement as you see in the discussion. If you were at 220+ for 5 hours, I would assume that you might have probed hard fat. It makes a difference.

No one but you can make the call.

 

[smoker-rco]

I'm not going to chance it.  Lesson learned!!!!  Sad day.

 

[demosthenes9]

Don't toss it.    If you are worried, carve out where the probe was.

 

[Bearcarver]

 
I'm not going to chance it.  Lesson learned!!!!  Sad day.

Like Foamy said, Nobody can tell you what to do.

However you were actually 2 hours too long in the Danger zone after probing it in the beginning.

I'm not sure about what Demo said about cutting out the area where the probe was, but I would think if that would take care of it I would have seen that mentioned in the last 4 1/2 years.

I hate to see anybody lose 7 pounds of any kind of meat, but I also hate to see somebody get seriously sick.

I would also recommend until you get used to your smoker & therm, don't inject it or probe it for the first 3 hours. Then you don't have to worry about the "Intact muscle rule". That's what I do all the time, because I like to play with temps often.

Bear

 

[demosthenes9]

 
Like Foamy said, Nobody can tell you what to do.

However you were actually 2 hours too long in the Danger zone after probing it in the beginning.

I'm not sure about what Demo said about cutting out the area where the probe was, but I would think if that would take care of it I would have seen that mentioned in the last 4 1/2 years.

I hate to see anybody lose 7 pounds of any kind of meat, but I also hate to see somebody get seriously sick.

I would also recommend until you get used to your smoker & therm, don't inject it or probe it for the first 3 hours. Then you don't have to worry about the "Intact muscle rule". That's what I do all the time, because I like to play with temps often.

Bear

Bear, let me start out by saying that I could be completely wrong about this.    That said, here's my thought process.

The reason the "safety zone" doesn't apply to intact meats is that the organisms (or their pollutants) don't travel through the meat fibers.  IF they did, then intact meats would have to follow the same rules as ground beef.

The only point of penetration in that brisket was where the probe went in.  IF contamination is a concern, then carving out a chunk of meat surrounding the hole made by the probe would remove any offending organism in my opinion.

If you will, say you have a brisket that is 14 inches long and the probe was stuck straight down within 1 inch of the end of the brisket.  How could that possibly contaminate the entire cut ?   Cut off 2 inches of the brisket where the probe was, and you are left with an intact piece of meat that has not been penetrated.   (Again, in my opinion).

 

[dandl93]

If this had been my meat I would of cut it into 5 pieces pulled out the pressure cooker added the meat,onions,bell pepper,garlic and a good sauce.When the whistle started blowing give it 15mins then off the heat.I would be sitting down to some great tasting Bar B Que Beef sandwiches.

I also live where by 5am all the meat has been butchered and is hanging on hooks in  open air markets.There is no USDA all meat is picked by site and smell.My self or any one I know has ever been sick from bad meat in the last 10 years.

This is my opinion and my point if it smells good but have doubt for any reason.Cook past medium done.

Dan 

 

[Bearcarver]

 
Bear, let me start out by saying that I could be completely wrong about this.    That said, here's my thought process.

The reason the "safety zone" doesn't apply to intact meats is that the organisms (or their pollutants) don't travel through the meat fibers.  IF they did, then intact meats would have to follow the same rules as ground beef.

The only point of penetration in that brisket was where the probe went in.  IF contamination is a concern, then carving out a chunk of meat surrounding the hole made by the probe would remove any offending organism in my opinion.

If you will, say you have a brisket that is 14 inches long and the probe was stuck straight down within 1 inch of the end of the brisket.  How could that possibly contaminate the entire cut ?   Cut off 2 inches of the brisket where the probe was, and you are left with an intact piece of meat that has not been penetrated.   (Again, in my opinion).

I understand your thought process, and it makes common sense, but things like this defy common sense. You admit you could be wrong, and I am not enough of a scientific authority to say you are wrong or right, so that means between the two of us, we aren't sure, so to stay safe I would say the meat may not be safe.

This (below) is from a trusted authority (BBally):

Unpunctured, intact muscle need only have the outside 0.5 inch pass through 140 degrees within 4 hours. Something easily done at temps of 200 F or more.

Now if you inject it, you have changed the "intact nature" of the meat and should treat it as ground meat or forced meat. This means the inside temp of the meat must pass through 140 within four hours. 
Going under 200 F without intact muscle generally requires that another method of cooking have been used.... Nitrate or Nitrite curing being most common. But lemon and lime juice under a method called ceviche also will do the job, though generally limited to fish.

Most common error that results in hospitalization of people consuming improperly handled intact muscle?

"inserting a temp probe into the intact muscle prior to the outside being above 140F or the probe not being wiped with sterilizer prior to insertion."

Bear

 

[demosthenes9]

 
I understand your thought process, and it makes common sense, but things like this defy common sense. You admit you could be wrong, and I am not enough of a scientific authority to say you are wrong or right, so that means between the two of us, we aren't sure, so to stay safe I would say the meat may not be safe.

This (below) is from a trusted authority (BBally):

Unpunctured, intact muscle need only have the outside 0.5 inch pass through 140 degrees within 4 hours. Something easily done at temps of 200 F or more.

Now if you inject it, you have changed the "intact nature" of the meat and should treat it as ground meat or forced meat. This means the inside temp of the meat must pass through 140 within four hours. 
Going under 200 F without intact muscle generally requires that another method of cooking have been used.... Nitrate or Nitrite curing being most common. But lemon and lime juice under a method called ceviche also will do the job, though generally limited to fish.

Most common error that results in hospitalization of people consuming improperly handled intact muscle?

"inserting a temp probe into the intact muscle prior to the outside being above 140F or the probe not being wiped with sterilizer prior to insertion."

Bear

Thanks Bear,

With that said, I'm kind of confused though as Bbally also said this:

Most do not know that you can cooked a poultry product to less that 165 F using a method called pastuerization. .That is holding the product at a certain temp for a specific length of time
Temps can be used two ways to make food safe. Temp reached as in the 165 F you see listed often for chicken. Or holding at a lessor temp for a longer period of time.

For instance we can make safe pork roasts by holding at 140 F for 12 minutes.

Same way if you want to have an injected beef roast that can no longer use the intact muscle rule, one can hold the beef muscle for 3 minutes at 145F and be legal to skip the 165F ground meat rule. 

I need to point out that this statement was in response to a question, but, for whatever reason, the questions no longer show up in the thread.

I'll also add the disclaimer again that I'm not a safety expert or anything close to it.  Just a backyard and in the kitchen cook.

I guess I'm kind of confused as to why ground meat only has to go to 165 for a short time to be perfectly safe, but a brisket that has been punctured in 1 place has to be thrown away if not @ 140 degrees in 4 hours, even though  it will be cooked for more than 3 hours at temps well in excess of 165.

I must be missing something because that just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[Bearcarver]

 
Thanks Bear,

With that said, I'm kind of confused though as Bbally also said this:

I need to point out that this statement was in response to a question, but, for whatever reason, the questions no longer show up in the thread.

I'll also add the disclaimer again that I'm not a safety expert or anything close to it.  Just a backyard and in the kitchen cook.

I guess I'm kind of confused as to why ground meat only has to go to 165 for a short time to be perfectly safe, but a brisket that has been punctured in 1 place has to be thrown away if not @ 140 degrees in 4 hours, even though  it will be cooked for more than 3 hours at temps well in excess of 165.

I must be missing something because that just doesn't make any sense to me.

Some of the technical stuff BBally says kinda gets lost, probably because we have to fight with people who don't even want to agree with the 40 to 140 in 4 hour guide.

And cooking well over 165 for 3 hours may get rid of the bacteria, but not the toxic waste that the bacteria leaves.

But that's mostly too technical. I just except the intact muscle rule (guide) as it stands.

I explained the important parts, and I'm not going to run into the more technical rules that BBally posts. Those posts are at another thread designed specifically for safety purposes.

Bear

BTW:  Smoker-RCO,

The reply I gave you on post #14 stands. Sorry for the Hijack.

Bear

 

[smoker-rco]

Thanks everybody for the responses. If I put the probe in at the beginning next time I will be sure to sanitize it. I hated to loose that piece of heaven but I just wasn't sure and wanted to be safe.