Boiling water?

[crclass]

So science tells me that water boils at 210°~.so if I am smoking my but at 225° wouldnt the water in the pan justl boil away? At that point am I steaming or smoking?

 

[crankybuzzard]

Yep, it'll boil away. Now, are you steaming? No, not really, but what you are doing is placing a heat sink in the cooking chamber that provides a known constant temperature which will assist in you maintaining the 225 you want. Also, the water, once hot, will assist in getting the pit back up to temp after opening the door/lid to check on things.

In order to steam your meat, it would take a lot of water boiling in a concentrated area.

The above are my thoughts and others may have differing views. :biggrin:

 

[cal1956]

the only time I use the water pan in mine is when I have a lot of meat in the smoker , it helps prevent grease fires

 

[dcarch]

First to be precise, water does not boil at 212F. Water can only boil at 212F plus additional BTUs (known as Enthalpy of vaporization).

Second, steam is not visible. What you can see is actually just plain water droplets, ie water droplets condensed from steam.

Third, water does not have a good ability to help heat recovery because water cannot be hotter than 212F inside a smoker. One lb of water can give you only one BTU per one degree change.

Any time you have moisture in air, you are "steaming". In a cooker, you are limited to 212F, in a pressure cooker you will be steaming at 250F, and in a combi oven, higher is possible, and in an autoclave, even higher.

dcarch

 

[cal1956]

 
First to be precise, water does not boil at 212F. Water can only boil at 212F plus additional BTUs (known as Enthalpy of vaporization).

Second, steam is not visible. What you can see is actually just plain water droplets, ie water droplets condensed from steam.

Third, water does not have a good ability to help heat recovery because water cannot be hotter than 212F inside a smoker. One lb of water can give you only one BTU per one degree change.

Any time you have moisture in air, you are "steaming". In a cooker, you are limited to 212F, in a pressure cooker you will be steaming at 250F, and in a combi oven, higher is possible, and in an autoclave, even higher.

dcarch

well lets be "precise" shall we ..... the temperature that water boils at DEPENDS ON ALTITUDE 

 for example  i live at an altitude of 6500 feet above mean sea level which means that water BOILS AT 199-200 DEGREES  NOT 212 DEGREES

steam IS visible   WATER VAPOR IS NOT

water CAN be much hotter than 212 degrees

 

[dcarch]

 
well lets be "precise" shall we ..... the temperature that water boils at DEPENDS ON ALTITUDE 

 for example  i live at an altitude of 6500 feet above mean sea level which means that water BOILS AT 199-200 DEGREES  NOT 212 DEGREES

steam IS visible   WATER VAPOR IS NOT

water CAN be much hotter than 212 degrees

When we discuss common meaning of everyday experiences, we typically mean normal conditions.

Water boils at 212F under normal conditions, which also mean at one atmospheric pressure. 

You are correct, under very abnormal conditions, water can "super heat" even under one atmospheric pressure. 

According to WiKi's definition:

"Steam  is water  in the gas  phase, which is formed when water boils. Steam is invisible; however, "steam" incorrectly often refers to the visible mist  or aerosol  of water droplets formed as this water vapor  condenses"

dcarch

 

[cal1956]

steam is water in transition from liquid to vapor and is  visible ..... 

 

[dcarch]

 
steam is water in transition from liquid to vapor and is  visible ..... 

Well, you are free to disagree with WIKI, and here is another you can disagree with, and there are lots more:

"When you boil water it turns into gas. It's really water gas but it's usually called steam. Water gas (steam) is actually invisible just like a lot of other gases. The visible vapour you can see is really lots of very small water droplets that are condensing out of the steam as it cools."

dcarch

 

[atomicsmoke]

"First to be precise, water does not boil at 212F."

I am not sure I understand your statement.

 

[dcarch]

"First to be precise, water does not boil at 212F."

I am not sure I understand your statement.

If you bring water all the way to just at 212F and stop right there, water will not boil. 

Boiling is vaporization. You must add additional BTUs to get water to start boiling. 

For one lb of water to boil away, you need to supply 970.4 BTUs after water has reached 212F (known as Heat of vaporization)

dcarch

 

[atomicsmoke]

Water starts boiling at 212. You do need additional heat to keep the process going, but temperature stays at 212 (within measurable precision).

 

[cedar eater]

Wow! Lots of nitpicking. So, I'll add to the fun. Water is vaporizing at temperatures well below it's boiling point through the process of evaporation. Its boiling point is the maximum temperature for a given ambient pressure at which it can remain in a liquid state, regardless of ambient temperature. It will expand in volume by about 1500% as it passes into a gaseous state. This expansion absorbs heat from the ambient gaseous medium (smokey air). Attempting to raise the temperature of liquid water above the boiling point speeds the rate of vaporization through the mechanism known as boiling, which is visibly more vigorous than simply seeing vapor float off the top. Using a water pan in a chamber that is above the boiling point (for a given ambient pressure) will cause the water to boil, but not necessarily vigorously, which is why we use the water pan. The water in the pan doesn't boil rapidly in ambient conditions suitable for slowly cooking meat, but the heat absorbing process of vaporization dampens the oscillations of temperature when heat is being controlled by means that are not using enough other dampening technology. And I don't mean dampen as in "make wetter", although that is actually what happens. I mean dampen as in "reduce the rate of change and the amplitude of oscillations." If you've got a smart enough controller, you will have no need for a water pan, because the controller will anticipate the achievement of its goal and slow its approach to prevent or minimize overshoot.

 

[GaryHibbert]

 
Wow! Lots of nitpicking. So, I'll add to the fun. Water is vaporizing at temperatures well below it's boiling point through the process of evaporation. Its boiling point is the maximum temperature for a given ambient pressure at which it can remain in a liquid state, regardless of ambient temperature. It will expand in volume by about 1500% as it passes into a gaseous state. This expansion absorbs heat from the ambient gaseous medium (smokey air). Attempting to raise the temperature of liquid water above the boiling point speeds the rate of vaporization through the mechanism known as boiling, which is visibly more vigorous than simply seeing vapor float off the top. Using a water pan in a chamber that is above the boiling point (for a given ambient pressure) will cause the water to boil, but not necessarily vigorously, which is why we use the water pan. The water in the pan doesn't boil rapidly in ambient conditions suitable for slowly cooking meat, but the heat absorbing process of vaporization dampens the oscillations of temperature when heat is being controlled by means that are not using enough other dampening technology. And I don't mean dampen as in "make wetter", although that is actually what happens. I mean dampen as in "reduce the rate of change and the amplitude of oscillations." If you've got a smart enough controller, you will have no need for a water pan, because the controller will anticipate the achievement of its goal and slow its approach to prevent or minimize overshoot.

OK.  I THINK I understood what you just said.  Maybe.  Probably not.  LOL

Gary

 

[dcarch]

 
Wow! Lots of nitpicking. So, I'll add to the fun. Water is vaporizing at temperatures well below it's boiling point through the process of evaporation. Its boiling point is the maximum temperature for a given ambient pressure at which it can remain in a liquid state, regardless of ambient temperature.

Evaporation will not happen if air relative humidity is 100%.

It will expand in volume by about 1500% as it passes into a gaseous state.

Steam engine was invented using that.

Attempting to raise the temperature of liquid water above the boiling point speeds the rate of vaporization through the mechanism known as boiling,

You can't raise water temperature above the boiling point.

which is visibly more vigorous than simply seeing vapor float off the top. Using a water pan in a chamber that is above the boiling point (for a given ambient pressure) will cause the water to boil, but not necessarily vigorously, 

How vigorous depend on the BTU supply from the heat source, relative humidity of air, thermal conductivity and shape of the vessel.

which is why we use the water pan. The water in the pan doesn't boil rapidly in ambient conditions suitable for slowly cooking meat, but the heat absorbing process of vaporization dampens the oscillations of temperature when heat is being controlled by means that are not using enough other dampening technology.

If you look into thermal conductivity of water, specific heat of water and the latent heat of vaporization, the ability of water to stabilize temperature is insignificant. It's use does help to minimize food moisture lost by increasing relative humidity inside the chamber.

------------I mean dampen as in "reduce the rate of change and the amplitude of oscillations." If you've got a smart enough controller, you will have no need for a water pan, because the controller will anticipate the achievement of its goal and slow its approach to prevent or minimize overshoot.

In an electric smoker with a 1500 watt heating element, it is able to put out 5,118 BTUs/hour, and if you have 5 lbs of water in a pan, 4,850 BTUs will be need to evaporate the water instead of heating up the smoker and food.

dcarch

 

[cedar eater]

 

 

[floridasteve]

Sorry, but I see no valu to this thread.

 

[daveomak]

So science tells me that water boils at 210°~.so if I am smoking my but at 225° wouldnt the water in the pan justl boil away? At that point am I steaming or smoking?

crclass.... morning..... you can start another thread to get your question answered clearly.... Seems your thread has been ..:ahijack:

 

[smokin phil]

Sorry, but I see no valu to this thread.

It's just the "water pan full of water or not" debate. Do what you like, just like a recipe. Make it your own. I've done both, I'll do both again.

 

[dcarch]

Sorry, but I see no valu to this thread.

Would you be kind enough to tell us which part of the discussion is not on topic and irrelevant to the science of smoking?

I will agree with you if you feel that every point discussed so far is already 100% understood by 100% of the members.

Thanks.

dcarch

 

[floridasteve]

I didn't say it was off target, I said I didn't see any value to it. I can appreciate, and have read with interest in the past, a discussion about using or not using a water pan. But a discussion of the science of boiling water is of no interest.

Anyway, should have just gone on to another thread and kept my mouth shut. Just because it's of no value to me, doesn't mean it is of no interest to everyone. I appoligise for the inappropriate comment.