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Why 4 hrs

Bearcarver

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LOL,

This doesn't go directly to anyone, but just general:

After all the research we all have done, some a lot more than others
[hr][/hr]
It all comes down to what?

Like I said in the beginning:

Get your food from 40˚ to 140˚ (or maybe 135˚) in no longer than 4 hours.

That and keeping everything in the area as sterile as possible (including yourself) should keep you safe.

Knowing who found this out, why they found it out, when they found it out, and how they found it out does nothing to change the facts we all must know
[hr][/hr]
[color= rgb(24, 24, 24)]Get your food from 40˚ to 140˚ (or maybe 135˚) in no longer than 4 hours.[/color]

I can't rattle off all the information I found when I did most of my searching long ago, because I don't remember how many bad little guys double their population in how many seconds, because it was too long ago when I read it.

I stopped reading and started smoking when I realized that no matter how much info you cram into your head, while you could be curing and/or smoking delicious meats, the fact remains, all you really have to know is:

Get your food from 40˚ to 140˚ (or maybe 135˚) in no longer than 4 hours.

That and:

Get your food from 40˚ to 140˚ (or maybe 135˚) in no longer than 4 hours.

Bear

PS: To admins---Those two stupid lines were added by the platform. I tired of removing them & left these there.
 
Last edited:

arnie

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Well said, Princess, more information than I want, but well said. 


I am glad we have people who take a dedicated interest in food safety.

Me? I’m too squeamish. If I thought about it too long I’d turn vegetarian. 


Then I’d find out that’s just as bad and stop eating.

I have worked long and hard to bulk up my frame and while I could stand a little trimming down there’s no need to go overboard. 
 

princess

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I love you, Bear. :)  Remind Mrs. BC what a good dude she has.

-Princess
 
Knowing who found this out, why they found it out, when they found it out, and how they found it out does nothing to change the facts we all must know
[hr][/hr]
Get your food from 40˚ to 140˚ (or maybe 135˚) in no longer than 4 hours.
 

alelover

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259°F for more than 90 minutes? Shouldn't it be 159? Seems like the meat would be inedible at that temp.
 
Last edited:

Dutch

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Okay-before this thread starts to head down hill any further than it has, let me remind everyone that this is intended to be an enlightening and interesting discussion and that everyone is entitled their own opinion. Let's not belittle someone because their opinion is different than yours. If this continues, this thread will be removed.
 

chefrob

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[hr][/hr]
[color= rgb(24,24,24)]Get your food from 40˚ to 140˚ (or maybe 135˚) in no longer than 4 hours.[/color]
i'm with bear.............it's worked for me for the last 25+ yrs in food service.

i do want to say these types of discussions are good to have for a couple of reasons. it gets people to do some research on there own, it lets us have a healthy exchange about good vs. bad food handling practices, and last but not least it puts out info to those who might not post but do read these things.............
 
 

princess

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It is, you're absolutely right, and thats my point!! Good eyes, alelover!  You have to keep that TOXIN from showing up in your meat. B.cereus itself is kinda nasty, but it is the toxin produced as it multiplies that is what makes you sick, and it is practically impossible to get rid of once you have it.

So, to re-iterate:

40-140 in 4

(and once it's cooked, eat it or fridge it)
259°F for more than 90 minutes? Shouldn't it be 159? Seems like the meat would be inedible at that temp.
 

tjohnson

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If you've ever had "Food Poisoning", you'll do everything to NOT get it again!!!

The United States has the "SAFEST" food supply in the entire world, mostly because our Government's Intervention.

Todd
 
Last edited:

beer-b-q

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LOL,

This doesn't go directly to anyone, but just general:

After all the research we all have done, some a lot more than others
[hr][/hr]
It all comes down to what?

Like I said in the beginning:

Get your food from 40˚ to 140˚ (or maybe 135˚) in no longer than 4 hours.

That and keeping everything in the area as sterile as possible (including yourself) should keep you safe.

Knowing who found this out, why they found it out, when they found it out, and how they found it out does nothing to change the facts we all must know
[hr][/hr]
[color= rgb(24, 24, 24)]Get your food from 40˚ to 140˚ (or maybe 135˚) in no longer than 4 hours.[/color]

I can't rattle off all the information I found when I did most of my searching long ago, because I don't remember how many bad little guys double their population in how many seconds, because it was too long ago when I read it.

I stopped reading and started smoking when I realized that no matter how much info you cram into your head, while you could be curing and/or smoking delicious meats, the fact remains, all you really have to know is:

Get your food from 40˚ to 140˚ (or maybe 135˚) in no longer than 4 hours.

That and:

Get your food from 40˚ to 140˚ (or maybe 135˚) in no longer than 4 hours.

Bear

PS: To admins---Those two stupid lines were added by the platform. I tired of removing them & left these there.
I agree with Bear...
 
 

pandemonium

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Let me ask this,are these bacterias always present in every piece of meat? and have to be killed by cooking? or like salmonella where as far as I know is

not in every piece of chicken, so eating a raw piece of chicken wont necessarily make you sick.
 

Bearcarver

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Let me ask this,are these bacterias always present in every piece of meat? and have to be killed by cooking? or like salmonella where as far as I know is

not in every piece of chicken, so eating a raw piece of chicken wont necessarily make you sick.
Short answer to bacteria on all meat----Yes, some good, some bad.

More:

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00035.htm

AND

http://bacteriamuseum.org/cms/Food-And-Water-Safety/food-safety.html

BTW: I wouldn't eat any raw chicken, or any other raw meat.

Did I mention?[hr][/hr]Get your food from 40˚ to 140˚ (or maybe 135˚) in no longer than 4 hours.

Bear
 

gnubee

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Does anyone know what effect removing all the air from the meat has in preserving it. Eg. using a vacuum bagger. Or does that just speak to eliminating freezer burn and have no effect on the growth of the little nasty bugs.

I have found that placing tiny little signs on the surface of the meat that read " Please Keep off the meat " to be totally ineffective as it appears that germs and virus don't know how to read.

As a consequence I now cooke my meats to 140 or more in under 4 hours.

Ps . Maybe its just me but I find meats like ground beef, or ground pork that have been left out on the counter for an hour or so before frying or grilling do not seem to taste as good as meats taken cold from the package shaped immediately into patties and slapped directly on the pan or grill. Ergo I think the more time that germs act upon the meat the more they seem to degrade the taste quality. Perhaps that is just my imagination.  My wife likes to have meat come to room temp before she cooks it. Not me.

Tip. Try this in your local supermarket. Look closely at a piece of  pork, beef or chicken sitting in the meat cooler. Pick up the package and go to a different part of the store then look closely at it again.

In many stores the type of lighting is very different in each section. You may now detect a greenish blue tinge to the meat that isn't apparent under the red hued blue/green suppressed light from the meat section of the store. This is usually more dectectable in pork and chicken than beef.  Sometimes there is little or no difference, sometimes there is a huge difference. 

If you get home and open the package of ground beef then break open a piece to make Burger patties for example. You may now notice an outside narrow layer of nicely red colored beef while in contrast the bulk of the center of the meat is a dull greyish. In all probability the meat surface  has been either colored with some bright red colouring or the center portion may have been covered with a thin layer of fresher better looking meat. That greyish tinge is caused by bacteria. Lots more of it than the fresher outer coating would suggest.

If you detect this kind of practice don't be afraid to complain and then go ot look for a better place to shop for meat where these kind of practices don't occur.

I am now officially off my soap box.
 
Last edited:

tjohnson

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Nice looking Soap Box!

TJ
 

beer-b-q

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Nice Soap Box GnuBee, 

Where you Been?

I haven't seen you around, or do I need to get my glasses changed again?
 

Bearcarver

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Does anyone know what effect removing all the air from the meat has in preserving it. Eg. using a vacuum bagger. Or does that just speak to eliminating freezer burn and have no effect on the growth of the little nasty bugs.

I have found that placing tiny little signs on the surface of the meat that read " Please Keep off the meat " to be totally ineffective as it appears that germs and virus don't know how to read.

As a consequence I now cooke my meats to 140 or more in under 4 hours.

Ps . Maybe its just me but I find meats like ground beef, or ground pork that have been left out on the counter for an hour or so before frying or grilling do not seem to taste as good as meats taken cold from the package shaped immediately into patties and slapped directly on the pan or grill. Ergo I think the more time that germs act upon the meat the more they seem to degrade the taste quality. Perhaps that is just my imagination.  My wife likes to have meat come to room temp before she cooks it. Not me.

Tip. Try this in your local supermarket. Look closely at a piece of  pork, beef or chicken sitting in the meat cooler. Pick up the package and go to a different part of the store then look closely at it again.

In many stores the type of lighting is very different in each section. You may now detect a greenish blue tinge to the meat that isn't apparent under the red hued blue/green suppressed light from the meat section of the store. This is usually more dectectable in pork and chicken than beef.  Sometimes there is little or no difference, sometimes there is a huge difference. 

If you get home and open the package of ground beef then break open a piece to make Burger patties for example. You may now notice an outside narrow layer of nicely red colored beef while in contrast the bulk of the center of the meat is a dull greyish. In all probability the meat surface  has been either colored with some bright red colouring or the center portion may have been covered with a thin layer of fresher better looking meat. That greyish tinge is caused by bacteria. Lots more of it than the fresher outer coating would suggest.

If you detect this kind of practice don't be afraid to complain and then go ot look for a better place to shop for meat where these kind of practices don't occur.

I am now officially off my soap box.
Germs could be like cats. The "Keep Off" signs on our counter tops don't work either. Doesn't mean he can't read. He just doesn't obey. We yell at him when he jumps up on the counters, but he keeps doing it---Doesn't mean he's deaf.

Interesting thing about the lights.

Outside color on ground beef
[hr][/hr]Could it be a light sprinkle of "cure"?
Good to see you again,

Bear
 

smokinstevo27

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Its simple, we in Canada are reasonable and don't realy try to push the envalope, in the US if they didn't put a specific time there are less than desiriable resturants that would try to push there luck.  not saying that there arn't in Canada also, just not as much.  and Canada, not being as driven to sue, there isn't as much push to have exact numbers that can protect al restuarant from lawsuits as well.

the multiplication of bacterial isn't linier between 40 and 140, the 4 hour bacteria multiplication is based off a specific temp, and most bacteria only have a 30 degree growth range, so the 40 to 140 is obvoulsy covering several types of backteria with different prefered temps. 

Steve
What is this guy talking aboot, eh? You are on a sight comprised mostly of Americans. What is with the generalized insults? And your spelling leaves a bit to be desired. This country sets the standards for the rest of the world in most facets of life. Our country has funded more research on BAKTERIA in a year than Canada.
 
 

princess

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Removing air can help, but not all bacteria and not all the time. In fact, some of the ickiest nastiest bacteria out there are totally content to multiply in an anaerobic environment.  I like the sign idea though!! ;) Let me know if you get that working!!

The presence of a grey internal core on ground meat is not uncommon nor is it a "bad" thing, and I have mixed thoughts on it.  The greying meat is NOT toxic, and is not caused by bacterial activity. It is caused by a lack of oxidation, or not enough exposure to air.  (You need the myoglobins naturally found in the meat to react with oxygen to get that deep red color) As Americans we are "more likely to buy" produce and meats that we find attractive, and the stores know this, so they let the meat air out a bit before they package it AND use thin clingfilm that allows oxygen to penetrate to the surface. Sometimes, they spray it with a quick blast of oxygen before packing it.

So, if I have more grey meat on the inside than you do, my meat may actually be more fresh.

(Not talking about outside greying here, that's a different song...)

So... I belong to Club Grind Yer Own.  Esp now that I have my schmaltzy new grinder.

Cheers!

Princess

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/factsheets/ground_beef_and_food_safety/index.asp
Does anyone know what effect removing all the air from the meat has in preserving it. Eg. using a vacuum bagger. Or does that just speak to eliminating freezer burn and have no effect on the growth of the little nasty bugs.

I have found that placing tiny little signs on the surface of the meat that read " Please Keep off the meat " to be totally ineffective as it appears that germs and virus don't know how to read.

As a consequence I now cooke my meats to 140 or more in under 4 hours.

Ps . Maybe its just me but I find meats like ground beef, or ground pork that have been left out on the counter for an hour or so before frying or grilling do not seem to taste as good as meats taken cold from the package shaped immediately into patties and slapped directly on the pan or grill. Ergo I think the more time that germs act upon the meat the more they seem to degrade the taste quality. Perhaps that is just my imagination.  My wife likes to have meat come to room temp before she cooks it. Not me.

Tip. Try this in your local supermarket. Look closely at a piece of  pork, beef or chicken sitting in the meat cooler. Pick up the package and go to a different part of the store then look closely at it again.

In many stores the type of lighting is very different in each section. You may now detect a greenish blue tinge to the meat that isn't apparent under the red hued blue/green suppressed light from the meat section of the store. This is usually more dectectable in pork and chicken than beef.  Sometimes there is little or no difference, sometimes there is a huge difference. 

If you get home and open the package of ground beef then break open a piece to make Burger patties for example. You may now notice an outside narrow layer of nicely red colored beef while in contrast the bulk of the center of the meat is a dull greyish. In all probability the meat surface  has been either colored with some bright red colouring or the center portion may have been covered with a thin layer of fresher better looking meat. That greyish tinge is caused by bacteria. Lots more of it than the fresher outer coating would suggest.

If you detect this kind of practice don't be afraid to complain and then go ot look for a better place to shop for meat where these kind of practices don't occur.

I am now officially off my soap box.
 

stircrazy

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What is this guy talking aboot, eh? You are on a sight comprised mostly of Americans. What is with the generalized insults? And your spelling leaves a bit to be desired. This country sets the standards for the rest of the world in most facets of life. Our country has funded more research on BAKTERIA in a year than Canada.
 
well that was typical and expected.  actually there were no insults there, just pointing out that the US is more of a litigation society than Canada, although we are getting better
.

By putting exact numbers in the regulations it allows restaurants a bit of protection if they follow the guidelines.  say take Jack in The Box for example.  if they had been following proper cooking procedures would they have lost as much money as they did from law suits? 

and if you look at standards in the world, trust me the US standards are not seen anywhere except US countries.  every country has there own standards good or bad, just how it is, and a lot of them are more stringent is some ways and less stringent in others.  Canada's standards are very similar to the US, some times we adopt things before the US sometimes we adopt after the US, really the only thing different between the US and Canada, is it is cheaper to live in the US, and we get more snow..  Oh and we don't have Jack in the Box and I am dieing for a sour dough jack right now... 


Steve
 

nwdave

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I've learned so much in this thread, I've got a headache, but it's a good headache.  I want to point out to PRINCESS, that just because you might be the new kid on the block does not mean your contribution or opinion is without value.  Actually, I think it stands heads and shoulders above some who don't listen and just keep repeating the same misleading tripe.  I'm with BearCarver in having learned some of this way back when, but since the field of knowledge in smoking is so broad, there's only so much time to learn all of the skills required to become successful.  Oh, and I really love your use of technical terms:  ickiest, nastiest bacteria.
  Now there's a quote to live by.  Hey, we're smiling. 
  Now when I'm asked why the guideline, I can point to your contribution as an excellent source.  Please, please feel free to step in with your expertise.  We all contribute to the well being of this site by the sharing of our composite knowledge, and I personally have never been afraid to learn something new from the "new kid on the block".  We were all new to this site at one time.  Oh, and don't you just the love the taste of fresh home ground beef?  At least now I know what's in the ground beef.

Now, what was BC saying about 40 to 140 in no more than 4?  Sounds like something that could be made into a high school cheer leaders mantra. Some of the best guidelines that are easily remembered are the ones presented in the simplest of terms.  Gotta love it.
 

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