Whats special about 225°

[SmokyMose]

Didn't read the whole thread but the only magic I can think of when dealing with 225F are the two following things:

• Meat in the smoker doesn't really want to go higher than 15F degrees below the smoker temp. So at 225F smoker temp you can get meat to 210F internal temp (IT) before it wants to really resist rising in temp. This means you can do any kind of BBQ and hit an IT.... but 225F will still take a looooooong time to get it there when often not necessary.
  
  
• On the East Coast or the "Old" South a lot of BBQ is seasoned/rubbed with sugar. Sugar will want to burn and get bitter at temps around 250F or above (that's my understanding at least). So no burning sugar. In Texas this isn't really a problem as my whole life I never saw anyone put sugar in a seasoning or rub for BBQ so sugar to burn and get bitter.

That's about all I can think of, but that is just knowing nuances of making BBQ. I never heard anyone say 225F because of those 2 points.

When making BBQ it is best to understand that each meat has it's own quirks to deal with. These quirks will affect the time, temp, and approach to making the BBQ

For example chicken/turkey with skin on will want to be smoked at 325F or higher in order for the skin to be edible. If not you get leather/rubber skin. Yeah you can attempt some other tricks to avoid the rubber skin but all I have tried have not been satisfactory, only the temp to cook at. Skinless, no issue cook at any temp.

Brisket, chucks, pork butts, beef ribs, and some others don't care what temp they are smoked at as long as you don't put sugar on it. They are all done when they are tender and the IT of the meat will tell you when to check for tenderness. Never time or temp, only tenderness.

Other meats chicken/turkey, ribeye roasts, and others are done when the meat hits a specific IT.

Sausage and bacon have a specific process of curing and then brining the smoker temp up slowly to like 160-170F until the meat hits desired IT.

So, on and so on. The meat you are making will determine what you do with process, time, temp, tenderness, etc. :)

I hope this info helps

I use brown sugar in my pork rub and never noticed any burnt. Maybe I've just been lucky.....

 

[Bearcarver]

LOL---Nothing special about 225°.
226° will do just fine.

Just kidding!!!
Actually once you get the hang of it, you can use whatever Temp you want, as long as it gets you there safely.
My Prime Ribs are the only things I go below, to 220°, because I want them slower, and I don't inject or probe too early, so they'll be safe too.
Then when you get to curing the meat first, you can use temps of 130° or lower, right down to no heat at all for smoking Bacon, as long as you fry it before you eat it.

Bear

 

[tallbm]

I use brown sugar in my pork rub and never noticed any burnt. Maybe I've just been lucky.....

I'll go with your experience on the sugar for sure. I don't have sugar in my rubs so can't tell you the burning point I run into hahaha.

civilsmoker just posted a list of temps and 275F was the max for sugar.
Maybe someone will do a "for science" test and smoke something with sugar in the rub at 275F+ and see what happens haha. Or just put sugar in separately so they don't ruin any meat.

It's a non-issue for me since I don't use sugar and BBQ sauce is put on while at the table 99% of the time when I make BBQ.
I do love to know things like this though :D

 

[PulledPorkSandwich]

My experience has been that 225 is too low for pork shoulders or brisket. For example, I aim for 200-203 IT on a brisket and when I set the box temp at 225, it takes over 24 hours, sometimes over 30, to get to 200. By then the brisket is dry. The same thing happens with a pork shoulder, although I aim a bit lower IT for it.

When I adjusted my box temp to 250, my packer brisket was done in about 16 hours and was moist, tender, and delicious.

I'm probably doing something wrong -- maybe I should aim for a lower IT -- since others have good luck with 225, but I will say I calibrated my thermometer using ice water and boiling water and both the IT and box probes were spot on. I also check for probe tenderness before I pull my meat.

 

[SmokyMose]

I'll go with your experience on the sugar for sure. I don't have sugar in my rubs so can't tell you the burning point I run into hahaha.

civilsmoker just posted a list of temps and 275F was the max for sugar.
Maybe someone will do a "for science" test and smoke something with sugar in the rub at 275F+ and see what happens haha. Or just put sugar in separately so they don't ruin any meat.

It's a non-issue for me since I don't use sugar and BBQ sauce is put on while at the table 99% of the time when I make BBQ.
I do love to know things like this though :D

There's always the possibility that I like the flavor of "toasted" sugar and just never realized it

 

[civilsmoker]

I'll go with your experience on the sugar for sure. I don't have sugar in my rubs so can't tell you the burning point I run into hahaha.

civilsmoker just posted a list of temps and 275F was the max for sugar.
Maybe someone will do a "for science" test and smoke something with sugar in the rub at 275F+ and see what happens haha. Or just put sugar in separately so they don't ruin any meat.

It's a non-issue for me since I don't use sugar and BBQ sauce is put on while at the table 99% of the time when I make BBQ.
I do love to know things like this though :D

I guess I should clarify.....for a longer cook, over 275 will burn the sugar, ie turn black and bitter. Short cooks its good at 275 or even higher. IE I even put a "dusting" of sugar on my prime rib roasts, it helps with crust formation. I even put it on steaks. Many commercial steak rubs add sugar as well. I put a sugar based rub on rack of pork and cook it at 350- 375 but its is only being cooked to IT of 140 so short but you get the crust as though it has been in smoking for 4-6 hours... 275 and a sugar based rub on pork ribs is a bark maker of tastyness! Same with rib tips...275 makes them less dry with the desired bark....

 

[DougE]

I now do pork butts at 275~300 with a dark brown sugar based rub, and the bark pretty much tastes the same as one done at 225. I haven't noticed any bitterness.

 

[civilsmoker]

I now do pork butts at 275~300 with a dark brown sugar based rub, and the bark pretty much tastes the same as one done at 225. I haven't noticed any bitterness.

Yup you right on the high side but still ok, much higher an it will start to burn....when I say 275, I'm assuming a plus/minus range as happens with smoking...

 

[Torch&Tone]

1) Every smoker will have some amount of temperature variance, both over time and exact location within the chamber. Even the fanciest probe is only giving you an approximation of what the food, as a whole, is getting exposed to. Precision (keeping the temperature within a smaller range, even if the average is a bit off) matters more to me than accuracy (hitting that average temperature right on the nose but having wild temperature swings while doing so).
2) If the food surface temp is still relatively low, it will help keep any sugar that is in close contact from burning. Chamber temp can be 300 or more, but the sugar, itself, might not burn as long as the meat surface lags below the char temp. If you want to use a sugar-heavy treatment and high temps... I dunno, one could get an IR temp scanner and either drop the heat or pull the meat based on the surface getting close to burnt?
3) Smoke absorption is not linear over time, but depends also on temperature, moisture, and a bunch of other chemistry variables. My understanding is that most of it happens relatively early on.

 

[Torch&Tone]

As for the whole boiling point question, I think it only matters for when you wrap (which you can track - though not predict? - by IT, anyway) and also are... shall we say, extremely detail-oriented?
A) Regardless of boiling point, you're losing moisture through evaporation at any temperature above the dewpoint. The higher above dewpoint, the greater the rate of evaporation, but the shorter the timeline for moisture to migrate from the deeper inside the meat up to the surface. (It used to be common practice to sear a steak first and then bring it up to IT in the belief that this "sealed in" moisture, but experiment has shown this to be false.)
B) The only thing special about the boiling point: all additional energy (heat) provided to the meat goes into converting available (at, or near enough to, the surface) liquid water into steam. Unlike at sub-BP-temps, the food won't get any hotter - and may even dip slightly - until there is no more available liquid water. At the risk of oversimplifying an important topic (!), this is part of the basis behind the stall.
C) Higher elevation might bring on the stall sooner during the cook, but this probably only matters if you're trying to figure out exactly when to wrap it, if that's your plan? Regardless of cooking down by the seashore or on top of a mountain, the stall ends when evaporative cooling ends, which is determined by the amount of available liquid, not the particular time in the cook at which it boils.

 

[thirdeye]

I now do pork butts at 275~300 with a dark brown sugar based rub, and the bark pretty much tastes the same as one done at 225. I haven't noticed any bitterness.

If the food surface temp is still relatively low, it will help keep any sugar that is in close contact from burning.

We're covering a lot of bases in this thread.... which is GREAT. I'm curious who uses turbinado sugar or demerara sugar in their rubs. Chris from Dizzy Pig is the one that introduced it to me because they can handle higher temps, and have slightly unique flavors. Dizzy Dust has been a favorite of mine since day 1.

A) Regardless of boiling point, you're losing moisture through evaporation at any temperature above the dewpoint. The higher above dewpoint, the greater the rate of evaporation, but the shorter the timeline for moisture to migrate from the deeper inside the meat up to the surface. (It used to be common practice to sear a steak first and then bring it up to IT in the belief that this "sealed in" moisture, but experiment has shown this to be false.)
B) The only thing special about the boiling point: all additional energy (heat) provided to the meat goes into converting available (at, or near enough to, the surface) liquid water into steam. Unlike at sub-BP-temps, the food won't get any hotter - and may even dip slightly - until there is no more available liquid water. At the risk of oversimplifying an important topic (!), this is part of the basis behind the stall.
C) Higher elevation might bring on the stall sooner during the cook, but this probably only matters if you're trying to figure out exactly when to wrap it, if that's your plan? Regardless of cooking down by the seashore or on top of a mountain, the stall ends when evaporative cooling ends, which is determined by the amount of available liquid, not the particular time in the cook at which it boils.

I was wondering if 'dewpoint' would make an appearance in this discussion.

Earlier I mentioned the competition cooks take on elevation. Some use terms that can be misleading regarding the 'stall'. The early stall (or plateau) refers to the pause in the internal temperature rise, that eventually 'breaks out' and the meat rises to the target internal temp. The term 'stall out' refers to a second stall, which is a temperature often close the boiling point, that the meat will not exceed (or remain at for hours). When a cook determines, a brisket for example, has 'stalled out', they monitor probe tenderness for up to an hour, then move to a hot box. The majority of briskets are wrapped, and at high altitude, more liquid is used.

 

[yankee2bbq]

I use turbinado sugar in my rubs. Because the burn point is higher than that of other sugars. Which was covered already.

 

[TNJAKE]

Another turbinado user here. Has a much better flavor than white or brown sugar

 

[xbubblehead]

After reading these posts it seems the best way to preserve moisture in a "stalled out" cook is to wrap until an acceptable tenderness is reached. I currently use a double wrap of parchment paper, I'm sure there is some controversy there, and test for tenderness after a time based on the size of the roast.

 

[tallbm]

After reading these posts it seems the best way to preserve moisture in a "stalled out" cook is to wrap until an acceptable tenderness is reached. I currently use a double wrap of parchment paper, I'm sure there is some controversy there, and test for tenderness after a time based on the size of the roast.

Another approach that is counter intuitive, is that if you cook at a higher temp you get through the stall faster then at a lower temp.

No matter what on these stalling meats (pork butt, brisket, etc.) they will only be done when they are tender. Never by time or temp. The IT of the meat will tell you when to check for tenderness :)

I don't wrap any of my whole packer briskets or pork butts. I just plan to let them stall AND I cook at them at 275F smoker temp. With my super stead and efficient smoker I plan on about 1hr 5-10min per pound and then +4hrs to that total.
My setup is set and forget so I start at the appropriate time and let the meat thermometer alarms tell me when to check for tenderness.

All of these smokes go overnight so I sleep like a baby unless one of the alarms (meat's done, smoker got too hot/pellet flame up, or smoker got too cold - breaker flip or smoker failure).

Once you nail a naked hotter smoked brisket or pork butt you may be like many of us and never wrap again. The unwrapped flavor is mind blowing to me :)

 

[masssmoke]

this thread is an interesting read, lots of good info. I am surprised to hear how many smoke ribs are what seem to me like high temps. I usually stick to 225 on my pellet and i know that it fluctuates like all pellet smokers but using a separate temp guage I know that the temp fluctuations are not that bad. But my concern with going higher like 275 is that the ribs won't end up both tender and just short of fall of the bone (which takes time) and not dry (which i have had problems with on my pellet). I feel like at a higher temp I would get ribs where there would not be a clean bone after eating.
I thought the advantage of 225 or around that temp is that the meat slowly gets to temp so it spends a lot of time in the temp range where the meat is breaking down collagen which makes it tender. If you smoke at a higher temp won't it power past the temp range that makes it tender? Maybe the diff of 275 from 225 isn't enough to matter in that sense

I guess I just gotta try a hot and fast one time and see!

 

[thirdeye]

I thought the advantage of 225 or around that temp is that the meat slowly gets to temp so it spends a lot of time in the temp range where the meat is breaking down collagen which makes it tender.

Well, I'm not young enough to know everything.... but there is some substance to this philosophy. And in addition to the advantages you mentioned, lower pit temps give you a bigger window to tend to other things during the afternoon.

 

[tallbm]

this thread is an interesting read, lots of good info. I am surprised to hear how many smoke ribs are what seem to me like high temps. I usually stick to 225 on my pellet and i know that it fluctuates like all pellet smokers but using a separate temp guage I know that the temp fluctuations are not that bad. But my concern with going higher like 275 is that the ribs won't end up both tender and just short of fall of the bone (which takes time) and not dry (which i have had problems with on my pellet). I feel like at a higher temp I would get ribs where there would not be a clean bone after eating.
I thought the advantage of 225 or around that temp is that the meat slowly gets to temp so it spends a lot of time in the temp range where the meat is breaking down collagen which makes it tender. If you smoke at a higher temp won't it power past the temp range that makes it tender? Maybe the diff of 275 from 225 isn't enough to matter in that sense

I guess I just gotta try a hot and fast one time and see!

Ribs are one of the cuts that don't care what temp you smoke them at. If you do 275F and you cook the ribs to an Internal Temp of about 198-200F they will be tender, juice, and everything you want. They are actually quite simple. People make good ribs in spite of all the steps of their process.

Doing this you can nail pork spare or baby back ribs no matter the temp you smoke as long as they get that hot :D

 

[noboundaries]

lower pit temps give you a bigger window to tend to other things during the afternoon.

Temperature and cooking time have an inverse relationship. Low temp, longer time. Higher temp, shorter time. Low temps extend the window when something is done. Once again, it's the physics of heat transfer. There's chemistry involved, too (Maillard Reaction for one), but it isn't much of a concern unless you're using sugar or need meat browned.

A rack of spareribs, for example, will go thru the same cooking processes regardless of the safe temperature used. I literally determine what chamber or oven temp I'm going to use based on how much time I have. Temp is like the accelerator on a vehicle. The higher temp, the faster the cook/smoke will go, and visa versa. I often start slow and later crank up the temp. The result tastes the same. I don't like cooking to a clock, so often start and finish early.

What works for one cut of meat though, very likely won't work for another. Spareribs and baby backs are an example. They are close, but the leaner meat on the baby backs can't be treated exactly the same as the fattier meat of the spareribs. Different muscles on the same animal also cannot be treated the same. Ribeyes and briskets are just one example.

Cookbooks, recipes, and training programs will have us believe there is a specific way to smoke/cook something. Nope. A recipe is ONE successful way to do something for that author, but it does so at the expense of instinct. My wife can only cook by recipe. Period. I'm self-taught using recipes, but often find them lacking flavor or using ingredients I don't like or have any desire to purchase. Now I use recipes for ideas, then put my own processes and ingredients together. I do this for all types of cooking, including baking.

Developing and expanding your own processes and instincts is as fun to me as eating a delicious result. It allows creativity in the kitchen, smoker, and on the grill.

 

[daveomak]

My interpretation of the 225F temp, when smoking non cured whole muscle meats is.....
225F is a temperature that will kill any and all bacteria and pathogens on the surface of the meat...
The step used when cooking a prime rib, as an example, kill the bacteria and then lower the oven temp to finish the cook to 120 ish internal temp....