Temp. Probe Contamination !?!?

[dick bullard]

Okay I understand the basics of possibly contaminating your meat when inserting the temp. probe into raw meat....! I am all for food safety and try to follow it the best I can.....But......!!!

Here is the concept I can't understand....why is it okay then to puncture raw meat with needles when injecting marinades and etc. and using large needles for pumping in large quantities of the same into larger meat chuncks......I'm not talking about pumping brines, but the normal injected flavors ??? I'm sure there are folks poking some of their smoke with knives to insert garlics and whatever for flavor, not to exclude those that just might be loading the smoker with a large BBQ fork...making holes all over the meat.....I could go on and on !!!

The reason this has come to my attention lately is.....I read a post from a Newbie on doing one of his first smokes and he almost sounded paranoid about insertimg a temp. probe at the wrong time !!!

Maybe I'm missing something, but how can we caution on one thing and throw caution to the wind on similar procedures......just askin !!!

Rick

 

[rdknb]

Very good points, I look forward to the answers

 

[graybeard]

Consider the source and always keep your utensels clean. Common sense goes a long ways!

beard

 

[tasunkawitko]

i agree with this very much. also, please everyone keep in mind that when you are cooking your meat up to temperatures approaching 200 degrees, you're killing everything that may have been there and the "danger" of food-borne illness from any pathogens that may have been there is nil.

always cook ground meat (burger, sausage etc.) past 165. other meats that don't get as high as barbecue (such as tenderloin etc.) "should" be cooked past 160 internal.

having said all that, there is no reason not to be extra-cautious. use a clean probe etc. if for no other reason that for the sake of hygene.

 

[deltadude]

The issue is the intact muscle, before puncturing the meat the muscle is intact and thus the kind of contamination to worry about is surface contamination. Thus as long as the surface of the meat to a depth of .5" achieves 140º in four hours or less then whatever surface contaminates or present be stopped from multiplying to dangerous levels and when 165º is acheieved they will be killed. The inside temp of the meat is not an issue and can take hours or low heat but eventually must achieve the USDA recommendation for that particular meat.

If the intact muscle is punctured by a probe or injection needle, then the muscle is not intact and is now consider ground meat, where the possible surface contaminates are possibly now in the inside of the meat. Thus the whole piece of meat now requires achieving 140º in less than 4 hours, to stop the multiply process which can release dangerous toxins, again meat has to be cooked to 165º to kill the contaminates.

Personally after reading the USDA recommendations on smoking, which clearly describes the proper procedures, and says to use two probes, one inside the meat to measure meat temp and a second probe to measure cooking temp, then proceeds to describe the cooking process of taking many hours to achieve the recommended temp per each meat. There is no differentiation between sticking a probe in the meat at the beginning of a smoke or waiting until the meat achieves 140º. The emphasis is simply on achieving whatever the recommended safe temp is for each particular meat.
Further the same type of language is used when describing the slow cooking process as used in a crockpot or other slow cooking device, without any distinction about intact or non-intact muscle (ground meats). So as long as the cooking temp is 180º or greater even if it takes 8 hours to achieve a meats safe consumption temp that is ok. There is NO mention of clearing the danger zone in less than 4 hours if either the meat is ground (non-intact muscle) or intact, or probed / injected.

The inclusion in the USDA smoking meats recommendation of using two probes, (rem. these are recommendations to a novice/public) implies inserting the probe at the very beginning of the smoke. Further this places the ultimate emphasis on achieving the recommend safe consumption temps for any meat ground or whole muscle, not on hitting 140º in less than 4 hours. Let me say again, there is no mention in either the USDA slower cooker guidelines or smoking meat guidelines about the danger zone, and acknowledges that both cooking types requires hours upon hours of cooking, and there is no mention of changing cooking times for any kind of meat.

So now that I have added to the confusion, draw your own conclusion.

 

[tasunkawitko]

>>>there is no mention in either the USDA slower cooker guidelines or smoking meat guidelines about the danger zone<<<

dd makes a good point here. the "danger zone" applies to food sitting out.

 

[bbally]

This is an incorret statement. The danger zone applies to all meat, not just meat waiting to be cooked.

 

[tasunkawitko]

yes, that's what i said. whether cooked or not, when you have a piece of meat, keep it above or below the danger one to prevent pathogen growth.

 

[chefrob]

good question rick and and to tell you the truth there is conflicting advice on puncturing a whole intact muscle prior and durring the cooking process. like you said "what about making slits for garlic/herbs/etc." on this one it is simple, the surface temp of an inact whole muscle will reach well above 165 way before the 4 hr mark so a clove of garlic inserted 1/2" deep does not pose a risk.

as for injecting flavors (not cure) you will be punturing and inserting a foreign subtance that will have been exposed to bacteria and inserting it into the meat. my thoughts on this, i don't inject. not because of the danger but i don't like the altared flavor of meat.....that's just me. do i think it is safe? if done with clean utensils and good products handled safely and cooked to proper temps within the correct time frame it should be fine, do i do it....no

as for temp probing you will be taking a contaminated (if not sterilized) object and upon inserting into the meat you will be introducing surface bacteria from the meat into the inside of the muscle. use a alcohol patch and i don't temp until the very end of the cooking process.

larding is simmilar to injecting but you are only using fat. this is a techinique that has been used for years and is taught in culinary institutions all over the world. it is a french technique and brings moisture to lean meats. my take on this is ...why? buy pieces of meat that has fat already in it.......larding needles can get a little pricey and can be a pain to use and "potentialy" expose the meat to a greater risk of contamination.

all the above are perfectly acceptible cooking practices to use and if you choose to try them then you chose to do so at your own risk.......there is my disclamer. that being said we should not be parinoid to temp out meat or to try new things in cooking. for those who say the USDA is the end all of food safety.......i choose "my" experience, training, and most of all common sense over the govt. when it comes to food saftey. i have done this for 25 yrs and and i have seen the danger zone change many different times based on "science". if it was science that established the previous standard......what makes this new one safer than the last one......or the one before that.

 

[chefrob]

it also includes meat durring the cooking proscess as i have understood it.

 

[tasunkawitko]

rob, re-read USDA - they are referring to cooked meats and raw meats. meat that is cooking is "in process." see my previous post re: finished temps.

 

[chefrob]

i don't tust the govt.
by that interpretation i can take 20+ hrs to get a turkey through the danger zone and it would still be safe? not on my family's table. am i mis under standing something cuz i don't thing that's what you are tryng to say.

 

[tasunkawitko]

if you're taking 20 hours to cook a turkey, you've got bigger problems than the potential of pathogens.

 

[chefrob]

it would really suprise you with some of the idiots i have "bounced" off my back dock before........

FWIW - i have leaned towards your (how do i say this without understating your stance on foodsafty)..."liberal" aproach to the craft and common sense atttude.

 

[tasunkawitko]

hey rob - didn't mean to dismiss your question, bud. it's just that everyone has their ways of doing things.

[opinion]to me, turkeys and other poultry should be cooked at higher temps, more in the 300-325 or even 350 range. they are tender so low-n-snow doesn't really apply and may in fact result in a finished product that is dry; additionally, cooking at a higher temperature eliminates the grossness of rubbery skin.

as for 20 hours to cook somethng, it can happen with briskets etc. i don't give much thought to internal pathogens for two reasons:

1) because i have gotten to the point where i don't need to know what the meat is doing every minute while it is cooking. i know what it is doing - it is cooking; therefore, i simply wait till it looks like it is "close to getting done" and start probing then. by this time, it is long past 160 degrees and, in my mind safe. since the meat is intact, there is no worry.

2) my barbecue (brisket, pulled pork, ribs, chicken, fatties etc.) is always cooked well past 165 degrees, much of it to temperatures approaching 200 degrees. anything that "may" have gotten on or into the meat is long dead and cooked by the time my barbecue is pulled off the grate, and therefore safe.

just as i would put a roast in the oven and take it out when its done, so too would i do the same with barbeuce on the smoker. i am aware of food safety guidelines and believe in them; and for those reasons as well as for hygiene i am mindful of such things, but i do not lose sleep over it. i refuse to be held hostage by fear. when it quits befing fun and starts to seem like a volatile science experiment gone horribly wrong and in danger of blowing up, then i will quit barbecuing.[/opinion]

i hope this clarifies my position and answers your questions. above all, i would advise everyone to do the research, match it with commmon sense and logical thought, and then do what they are comfortable with.

 

[chefrob]

that's pretty much my view.....

 

[dick bullard]

Thanks for all the great input so far folks.....definitely starting to understand (learn) some good info from SMF.

Now, is it possible for someone, with much more understanding of the subject than me to post a thread listing what we all seem to agree with on this subject.

I'm sure it would not on help newcomers to our forum, but more of us that have been around for awhile...don't think it ever hurts to read a few reminders of safety points in smokin so we don't get too complacent with time !!!

Rick

 

[bbally]

It is ok if you take them through the temperature danger zone within 4 hours.

Foodcode on injected and mechanical meats:


(2) 68

oC (155oF) for 15 seconds or the temperature specified
in the following chart that corresponds to the holding time for

RATITES, MECHANICALLY TENDERIZED, and INJECTED MEATS;

The reason for the foodcode is precisely people doing these things. Once it leads to an outbreak the failure is analyzed and the code is looked at in depth. The changes over the years to the foodcode has come from the knowledge learned in investigating foodborne illness outbreaks.

About the time everyone thinks the foodcode is idiot proof, some town creates a better idiot and we find a new foodborne illness outbreak.

Insert the probe after the outside has gone above 135 F (2009) foodcode.

We don't through caution to the wind. You will just find a lot of people that don't care about food safety or are completely ignorant of it. Often it is an ego thing.... Ahhh I don't follow that dopey stuff... I don't trust the government.... or some such craappp.

Can not tell you how many stupid food safety things I see on food TV.. from Emeril's EGO instilled... "food police crap" to Alton "I have not a clue about food safety" ideas on curing with saltpeter.

We try to correct the ones that are wrong and let people know what is correct. But the education continues as an ongoing education process. Some don't learn so fast.

 

[bbally]

This is an incorrect assumption on foodcode.

The meat must move through the danger zone in four hours total. That includes prep time.

Also the assumption that food becomes safe when it hits a certain temperature is wrong.

The botulinum toxin is not destroyed in normal cooking temperatures. Cooking to any final temperature that would be edible at the end would still result in illness.

 

[bbally]

Not true. Botulism toxin is not destroyed at 200F it will remain a problem that causes foodborne illness.

Cooking food to an ultimate final temperature does not mean it is safe. It has to be handle correctly from the start to finish.

As another member said, Know your sources.... always good to know where the product comes from... and handle it properly all the time.

Don't take tenderloin this high it will ruin it. Use the intact muscle rule and cook it to your preferred temperature.

Correct, always have clean sanitized utensiles.